I hadn’t seen that! Thanks for pointing it out.
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The problem here is point of reference. I am so out of the pop culture loop (sans Ugly Betty), I have no idea who any of these gentlemen are. So, it’s quite hard for me to discuss, because I do not know how much of their sex appeal can be attributed to their charm. Plus, from the head shots posted, none of them appear to be even pudgy. But, like I said, I don’t know who they are.
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Show me a woman (besides Rhea Perlman) lusting after Danny Devito, then we’ll be discussing the same thing.
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I had never even heard the term butterface till you brought it up after the Pink Kitty dustup. I guess the equivalent would be “living in paren’t basement”. Both are intended to disparage in pa “playful” way.

“Charm” is the whole point. Charm goes a lot further (farther?) in the world of men then it does women. Weight isn’t even an issue on this one. (For the record, I hadn’t seen the blog referred to before writing mine.) I was discussing that women can (sometimes, can only talk for my friends and I) look at the whole package. As for “Butterface”—that’s all about physical characteristics. Those are secondary for me. But anyone who will try to say that they are open minded on looks because the like America Ferreria or Marilyn Monroe or even pre-Jenny Craig Kirstie Alley is talking about a whole other thing. Those women are attractive and well pulled together…the men I referred to (Seth Rogen, Duff Goldman and the guys from Flight of the Conchords for those apt to Google) are not intrinsicly attractive or pulled together.
Um–I SO didn’t mean to go off….but, alas, I did. How cute is that fellas? Huh! Huh?

People say I remind them of Seth Rogen. Granted, we’re both pudgy guys with beards who have the same color hair and the same sense of humor, but other than that there’s no comparison! My hair’s straight, not curly.

well, then…that doesn’t count…it’s all about the curls.

I AM SO KIDDING!!!

Heather, I loved your post.
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Kat and I have been having a (hopefully) playful little spat about attractiveness and weight. You just happened to fit right into it without meaning to.
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But your post was fun on its own merits. I just wish I knew who those guys were. (Sigh - time is passing me by)

Kat and I have been having a (hopefully) playful little spat about attractiveness and weight.

We are?

What are the grounds of the spat, anyway?

Heather, I’m willing to get a tight perm to rock Seth Rogen’s Jewfro for Halloween next year.

Now THAT’S what I’m talking about right there!

I don’t agree that charm is the point. The only reason anyone has the opportunity to think those guys are charming is that they get to have their faces plastered all over TV sets and whatnot. If women who looked like the female equivalents of those guys could be on TV and given charming lines to read, I guarantee you that there are plenty of guys out there who would like them.* But (almost exclusively male) scriptwriters have a lot of trouble writing charming lines for women who aren’t quite lovely,** because the Three Ages of Women on both large and small screen are Babe, District Attorney, and Grandmother. And if you’re not the Babe, it doesn’t matter how young you are, you’re the DA. Who can’t be charming.

My point is that being presented with charm charms people. Not men, not women; people. But men who aren’t dreamboats are frequently given that presentation, while women who aren’t dreamboats almost never are.

*Come to think of it, a couple of the female characters on Grey’s Anatomy are in more or less that physical category. I knew a lot of guys who were charmed by them, before the show stopped being charming. **And it’s written by a woman. I rest my case, I think.

I’ve also heard John Carter Cash, but with more hair. I’m not sure which one fits me better, but Seth Rogen fits for personality alone.

nm: If I could Google image search some of my friends or the random guys I have insta-crushes on, they would look a lot like the guys I talked about. I know some very physically attractive people who I have no interest in at all after having a five minute conversation with them. So I stand by my “It’s all about charm” theory

Ron–it’s all about that personality

The only reason anyone has the opportunity to think those guys are charming is that they get to have their faces plastered all over TV sets and whatnot. If women who looked like the female equivalents of those guys could be on TV and given charming lines to read, I guarantee you that there are plenty of guys out there who would like them.*

Exactly.

Heather, I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. Charm matters, of course. To you, to me, to many people indeed. But the question of why women have crushes on “charming guys who look like that on TV” but men don’t have crushes on “charming gals who look like that on TV” is more complicated, since the equivalently charming women on TV are almost always gorgeous. I didn’t for a minute mean to suggest that you aren’t attracted to a particular look, when allied with charm, or that you are unusual in finding the combination attractive.

I don’t think I’m that unusual actually. However, you are comletely right about females in popular culture…well, TV and movies at least, there are some “not traditionally pretty” women in music that could get more booty then a toilet seat.

Yes. Not generally for their charm, though.

I don’t think men get crushes on anyone on TV, honestly. Now lust, on the other hand…

nm, this is why these discussions make no sense. You are assuming that men use the same filters as women do to assign attractiveness. (And why wouldn’t you?)
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But,most men I know, in general, mentally assign attractiveness taking only physical characteristics into account. Charm is a nice add-on, but hardly neccessary.
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I give you Pamela Anderson in the 90’s.
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Kat, spat isn’t the right word. I’ve just been trying to gently play devil’s advocate in all the “society is sucky to fat people” posts.
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You have to keep in mind, my recent history, when viewed through the filter of these discussions, makes me appear to be a body-obsessed, vapid, superficial person. Maybe I am, but I’d really rather not be thought of that way.
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So, interestingly, it’s probably me who’s taking these discussions personally.

I get crushes on everyone….and lust, well that is a whole other issue

Let me “revise and extend” that last comment. In most of these discussions, Kat, I agree with you, but then I look at my own life and feel like I’ve let the cause down. I feel like the caveman who switched to Geico.
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It’s just hard to resolve it all.
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And I find it fascinating that Heather and I agree on the charm thing.
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Although I do have a crush on Ellen Degeneres, and I can tell you, it’s ALL charm,there.

Kat, spat isn’t the right word. I’ve just been trying to gently play devil’s advocate in all the “society is sucky to fat people” posts.
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Aha. That better explains it. To me “spat” means either a) part of a shoe or b) a fight. Since I knew we weren’t discussing footwear, I assumed you thought we were fighting. Which was news to me.

It’s weird though…your argument that “I find these fat women sexy so society doesn’t suck so bad for fat people” is sort of coming off to me like the psychosexual equivalent of “some of my best friends are Jewish/Black/Gay”.

Trust me, just because you have a little crush on Kirstie Alley doesn’t mean that I don’t mind being turned down for a job because I wear a size 18 pants.

Some of my best friends are fat black gay jewish people.

Slarti sez: most men I know, in general, mentally assign attractiveness taking only physical characteristics into account. Charm is a nice add-on, but hardly neccessary.

Well, Slarti, I’m not questioning your experience. But I think that you and I may know different sets of guys, generally speaking. There certainly are guys out there who go for charm, and I know a whole lot of guys who will sit and watch a parade of female beauties on the TV, comment on how intelligent (or otherwise) they seem, and then turn the set off in disgust because they all look too dumb.

But take this a step further: you are writing here as if “attractiveness taking only physical characteristics into account” is some objective measurement. Now, you know that isn’t so. If nothing else, there are leg men and tit men and face men, there are the guys who go for boyishly slim and those who go for the voluptuous curves. And on and on. So physical characteristics that (to some people looking) suggest charm, or intelligence, or good nature, or mystical sadness, or whatever, are factored into each individual’s completely non-objective assessment of physical attractiveness.

And which characteristics even can be interpreted (by some people) as attractive is going to be influenced by what range of characteristics it’s permissible to show. So if TV won’t show charming but unusual-looking females, that won’t become part of the range of attractiveness for some men.

Isn’t Sarah Jessica Parker unusual-looking enough? Hilary Swank? Barbara Streisand?

Yes, everyone loves Hilary Swank and Barbra Streisand because they’re so charming. I will grant you Sarah Jessica Parker.

And I will refrain from commenting further on your definition of “unusual-looking.”

I think Barb Streisand is very charming in her movie/TV roles. She was the best thing about Meet the Fockers, she’s very charming in The Owl and the Pussycat, and she’s far from what I’d consider a classic beauty.

Every time I get lured into one of these conversations, I regret it.
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Only problem is, I’m fascinated by human behavior (especially as it pertains to gender differences), and can’t help myself.
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One day, I’ll learn.