I think it’s cool to do so, but I believe it is best done in smaller, intimate settings. Or, better still, privately. My bitch about the network coverage is that it smacks of pandering, purely ratings driven. I don’t view 9/11 as any more tragic than the Oklahoma City bombing, but I try to learn something from both.

I’m squicked out by those who seem to want to make it out to be some sort of holiday.
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I think it’s cool to do so, but I believe it is best done in smaller, intimate settings. Or, better still, privately.

The point of my original post is that we all remember in different ways. Mack, your preference is privately…others’ may not be so.

It really puzzles me how people can have the nerve to tell someone else how they should mourn or remember.

Nobody should be made to feel bad for how they choose to do so, and that’s what I was seeing a lot of this past week, sadly, especially from our more liberal brothers and sisters, when politics should have nothing to do with how one chooses to remember 9/11 or any other event of their life.

Ginger, I don’t have much objection to private people remembering in their own way(s). Unless I know those people, I don’t have to pay attention. And if I do know them, I am going to put thier remembrances into the entire context of who they are; it will tell me something about them that they do remember.

But I really object to certain public figures promoting public memorials of an event when they have both used the event dishonestly to promote unrelated, disastrous policies and reneged on promises to help those directly affected in the event.

So, nm, what would you have President Bush do? Ignore the day?

What? Please tell me?

Here’s the rub:

It could also be said that all of the uproar about how the remembrances were handled has been used as a platform for furthering THAT / THEIR agenda as well.

I’m saying this from someone who is against everything the president has done in handling it since…but damn…that ain’t what this should be about.

I don’t think Pres. Bush or anyone of us would want to ignore that day.
It was a time of horror and when our nation stood together.
But, people handled it differently. Their emotional, innerselves handled it in unique ways and everyone’s reaction was based on who they are when they shut the front doors of their houses and turn off the lights.
I liked your post about 9/11. Immensely. I really did.
I think that some people just felt like that some people were politicizing it as well and needed to express that aspect and what it meant to them.
I’ll be honest. I did.
No one should ignore it, that’s not what anyone is saying. I just think some people just went with their own comfort levels.
And, then again, I don’t think that was what nm was saying. From what I’ve read, she was in Manhattan that day and so her experience is probably different from others. If I’m wrong, correct me please.
I listened to talk radio Tuesday and heard both sides of the political spectrum rallying about how we should be afraid and it disappointed me to a large degree because people died and they should have been honored.
I don’t want a politician to use that for gain, know what I’m saying?
Another thing, and I think you make a good point on this: we should be able to grieve if we want to on our blogs about that terrible day.
When I talked to people on Tuesday, we all had moments of understanding with each other and how it all changed everything around us. I was comfortable that way. I needed the eye contact and the hugs.
I remembered being so freaked out about the anthrax. So unsure, so in limbo about my country and about so much death for absolutely no good reason other than people hate other people.
What a terrible time in history and for this country.
We all are different and introspective people. And we deal with things in an odd way that is so decisively human.
Thus, that’s what makes us come together.
Our differences are what brings us together.
Much love to you, Ginger.
There is no right way or no wrong way.
Just my perspective.
Your pal,
newscoma

Bush? I’d have him apologize to the people of NYC for misusing their tragedy for political ends, and then I’d have him tell Congress that in order to find the rebuilding and protecting the ports money he had promised he was going to have to scale back on the war. Oh, you mean seriously? I’d have him issue an announcement that he was observing the day privately (with family and loved ones, in prayer at church, whatever his personal style), and urged all other Americans to do likewise.

And, yes, I have seen comments (and had them made to me, even a few months after the attacks) along the lines of, “see? everything is back to normal for you already, so everything the President is doing is bull.” And, as I have remarked elsewhere, I find that every bit as objectionable as its opposite, and every bit as objectifying of the real victims and their experience.

Part of the reason that I think private, personal thoughts, choices, and actions are a better commemmoration than public is that they avoid either of these rather nasty extremes. Besides being more spontaneous and genuine.

There is no right way or no wrong way.

That’s the bottom line that I’ve been trying to get at all along…

Who is somebody else to make fun of others for wanting to watch the TV that day, or watch Bush lay his wreath, or talk about it…or, YES, ignore it?
To mock others’ choice in this issue is wrong.

I’d have him issue an announcement that he was observing the day privately (with family and loved ones, in prayer at church, whatever his personal style), and urged all other Americans to do likewise.

That is a great idea, too, nm.

Part of the reason that I think private, personal thoughts, choices, and actions are a better commemmoration than public is that they avoid either of these rather nasty extremes. Besides being more spontaneous and genuine.

Thats it. To me, it’s like praying. You intend to pray for me, or victims of a certain tragedy? Go right ahead, I think thats a swell thing to do. Right up to the point you feel the need to tell everyone you are doing it. I don’t care for public displays years after the fact. Of course no one is saying not to blog about it. But even that same day, the networks must have shown that footage of the second plane ten thousand times. It was shameful, and it scarred an entire nation. I’ll be damned if I am going to watch some network “special” featuring craven politicians and clueless talking heads. Instead, if I choose to honor those that perished, I’ll do so, if not, I won’t.

I think we are on the same page.

‘Coma, I wasn’t in Manhattan. I worked there, but I lived at the time in Hoboken, right across the river, with a clear view of the towers from my windows.

That doesn’t give me a bigger say in what’s appropriate for you or Ginger or anyone else to do in memoriam. I don’t consider myself to have been directly affected: my husband and I knew people who died in the attacks, but they weren’t immediate family or close friends. Their experience I can only, like almost everyone else, imagine.

But, if the direct and indirect survivors matter to you, I can tell you what a lot of people felt, and why NYC area people as a group feel odd about outsiders using us for their own ends. Hoboken had a population of 38,000 and lost more than 50 lives, so no one there could feel untouched. What gets lost in the fear and the politics and the rest of it is the grief. The simple, personal grief for good people who died by violence. Multiplied by the fact that every single other person you saw on the street was grieving, too. The best memorial anyone has given us, the single most healing thing for most of my friends there and me, has been the blue lights. No words, no objects, just an abstract, temporary beauty.

Another thought is that ya know…the country (including the media, etc.) has never had a tragedy of *this* magnitude to hit us before. So, really, we are all still working through what should be the way to do it.

So at 6 years on, do we treat it like Pearl Harbor Day with a mark on the calendar and a buried mention of it in a newscast?

Some can, but most aren’t there yet.

At some point, we’ve gotta put our politics aside and take care of each other has fellow human beings, ya know?

I should’ve been a hippie.

The blue light was absolutely beautiful.
We had a friend we couldn’t locate, but then we did.
Wish was joyous.
I can’t imagine looking across the river and seeing what you saw.
Today has been a weird day and I’m feeling all strange. A family member died, a friend is sick …
With that said, grief is appalling and personal and intimate and strange and horrible and, then again, revealing.
Does that make sense?
I knew you were near it all when it happened? Thanks for correcting me.
Can’t wait to be back in Nashville soon where we can, all of us, lift a glass of beer or coffee or whatever, and honor all of those who are important.
Whether we knew them or not.
We can celebrate life and our time in it.

‘coma, you & I would have made great flower children living in a commune somewhere where all you need is love…

Love you, soul sistah.

COMMUNE!!
I’m in.
Can we start one?

Eh, I didn’t look. My husband kept trying to get me to, but I know what’s not good for me. Some memories I don’t want to have. It is, I think, his great good fortune, that he turned away just before the first tower fell. After that he stopped looking; he ain’t no fool, either. Of course, after that I kept obsessing about how I was going to get to work. And when it became clear that I wasn’t going to, how I was going to call in. Like they wouldn’t have figured out I wasn’t there. People are crazy, you know?

Ginger, you like tequila too much to be a good hippie. You gotta give up all that bad alcohol and stick with pot and mushrooms if you want to go that way.

And hugs, of course.

And I thought Mack was starting the commune?

Ginger, you like tequila too much to be a good hippie.

ahahahaha…yes, nm, as always you bring up the most excellent of points!

Hugs back atcha!

Damn Mack for not starting the commune in a timely manner.
Heh.

Lets just not make 9/11 some American High Holy Day. And in comparison, what happened in Pearl Harbor was much worse, for it threw us into a World War, and yet it was much the same. People talk about how it was such a surprise. Well, it wasn’t a surprise. The world trade center had been hit before, and if you knew anything about world events you already knew that certain people were still aiming for it, and that a SECOND ATTEMPT on the buildings was going to be made. Which is all the more reason to be upset with bush for not preventing this attack and not responding well to it. And our country has suffered worse tragedies than these. During the Civil War we had thousands more dying every day for several years.

But, all the talk about how “horrible” that day was, what we “suffered” and declarations of “we shall never forget” are all part of turning this event into some kind of mythological American legend. If you feel hit hard by what happened that day, it’s only because of the extremely pampered and hedonistic lifestyles you immerse yourselves in.

And that doesn’t even get into this whole badge-of-the-sufferer thing that went on in NYC after the attack, elevating people into a different and strange subculture of entitlement and consideration. As if the loss of that day and event trumped any other loss on any other day. Other people died in our country that same day. Have you done anything to commemorate them?

Perspective, people.

Yeah, damn my hedonistic lifestyle. If it hadn’t been for that, I could have taken the death of the guy in my congregation who spent his weekends building houses in Newark, and the electrician from the shop around the corner, in stride. I would hardly even have noticed them being gone if it weren’t for my hedonism. And the dust cloud over the area for a few weeks, and my cousin needing to show ID to the police every day when she left for work and when she came home, and my colleagues who lost their home. And the smell. Do you know what burning bodies and buildings smell like, Kevin? Have you had that smell in the air for weeks? I guess that finding it unpleasant is just because I’m pampered. I don’t think it takes any special status of loss for me to tell you that you are treating people as objects, dude.

Stop it. I’m gettin’ all misty.

America the spoiled.

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/06/10/131-us-states-renamed-for-countries-with-similar-gdps/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/index.html
http://images.google.com/images?tab=ni&hl=en&ned=us&q=darfur

Kevin, the spoiled guy who lives off of everybody else while not working.

Perspective.

If you feel hit hard by what happened that day, it’s only because of the extremely pampered and hedonistic lifestyles you immerse yourselves in.

If you feel like people were only affected by 9/11 because they’re pampered hedonists then you’re probably a lazy piece of garbage who should be swept off the street.

I hope we have a nice cold winter this year. After this summer, I’d love to see a lot of snow and ice. Nothing would thrill me more.

Kevin, just because you sleep under a bridge, that doesn’t make you a troll. So stop acting like one.

Kevin, I was with you right up to that sentence. That wasn’t fair, but the rest of your post was right on the money.

I’d think twice before making light of a person’s homelessness, regardless of what they wrote on some blog, guys.

I’d think twice before making light of a person’s homelessness, regardless of what they wrote on some blog, guys.

Well, obviously, that’s nowhere nearly as bad a personal attack as calling someone an “asshole,” and hoping that they don’t die in a rollover accident.
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I think none of us can know how an event (any event) affected a given person, so it’s not for anybody to condemn someone for mourning.

That said, I do think that human beings have a natural tendency to want to attach themselves to something larger than themselves, and that is what SOME of this mourning is. It’s like the person who spends all their time bawling their eyes out at the funeral of their third uncles twice removed who they’d never actually met in life.

I’d never tell anybody not to mourn, nor ever assert that a particular individual wasn’t “truly” mourning, but I’m certain that there are individuals out there whose mourning displays are far more about themselves than about 9/11.

I’d think twice before making light of a person’s homelessness, regardless of what they wrote on some blog, guys.

Let me assure you, there was no “making light” of Kevin’s homelessness here. He wants us to grasp “perspective”? Then he needs to consider others’. Let him ponder that his “perspective” on his situation might be different from mine, then perhaps he will think before he is so quick to make light of others’ feelings. Just because he is homeless does not give him a pass to spew the venom he does time and time again.

Making light of another’s way of grieving — no matter if you or anybody else thinks they should be “moving on” — is also something to think twice about.

As I said in my original post:

“…the ceremonies and news coverage…as much as it may bring out your cynicism, for others it is a lifeline to healing…

…and to do so would most definitely convince me further of your supposed enlightenment.”

I have no interest in convincing you or anyone else that I am “enlightened”, Ginger. You started the post ranting about the fact that some people found it unsettling and perhaps even sickening that we had wall to wall coverage of “America Grieves.” Some of us chimed in to say what we thought would better serve us.

And yes, the remarks about living off of everyone else and sleeping under bridges were unnecessary, IMO.

Mack, I was quoting the end of my original post. Not directing the “enlightened” comment at YOU personally from this thread.

I believe it better serves us to allow people to grieve — even if that means watching wall to wall coverage of “America Grieves” — in their own, personal way rather than call it “sickening.”

I stand by my comment that just because he is homeless it does not give him a pass to spew the venom (calling others spoiled, etc.) he does time and time again when he is living off of those who he calls those names’ money.

You’re my friend, so I agree to disagree with you.

Kevin lost the chance to have his feelings taken into consideration when he came into this thread determined to be a troll. He did it on the other 9/11 thread too, and I’m sick of it. So f*ck it, I’ll say whatever I want to about the lifestyle he chooses to live. Just because he lives on the streets that doesn’t give him a free pass to be a d*ck, and he’s being a d*ck.

If he doesn’t live off everyone else, Mack, who buys him food? Who buys him clothes? Who lets him use the Internet? Who gives him the technology to do podcasts? Who gave him the digital camera needed to take all the pictures that go up in his blog?

Um, the Democrats?

As long as it wasn’t taxpayer-financed, WTF do any of y’all care who gave Kevin what?
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As long as it wasn’t taxpayer-financed,

Much of it is

WTF do any of y’all care who gave Kevin what?

Well, because time and again he talks about how we’re all hedonistic and selfish and then criticises the social programs–both taxpayer financed and private charitable–for not being understanding and/or giving enough for his liking.

I’m convinced Kevin cannot work largely because it takes so much of his energy to haul around his balls. I mean, it takes a GIANT pair to live off the charity of others and THEN call those same providers of charity “hedonistic” and selfish.

Much of it is taxpayer-financed. The infrastructure of the very city in which he lives is taxpayer-financed. The public library and the very internet he enjoys is taxpayer-financed.

I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is that he is given a pass to be hateful and insulting (calling us spoiled, hedonists, etc.) just because he is homeless.

Kat & I owe each other a coke

Oh man, Sarcastro. You rule. Now I have to go wipe the Pepsi off my desk.

I used to not have a problem with homeless people blogging while my tax dollars subsidizes it, but I do now.

See, I don’t care whether or not Kevin is homeless. I even agree that Clinton, Bush, Giuliani, and others should have done more to avert what happened on September 11th.* But I don’t understand the reasoning that says that therefore anyone who felt or feels hard-hit by it is a pampered hedonist who is cold to anyone else’s tragedies.

I mean, if losing friends and neighbors to violence isn’t a bad thing, why should we care about Darfur? And if we’re concerned about the experience of people in Darfur, why shouldn’t we be concerned about the experience of people in NYC? I don’t see how the premise leads to the conclusion here?

*And while we’re casting blame, let’s not forget the praise: after the bombing in 1993, it took about 10 hours to evacuate most of the people from the towers. The buiding management, evidently the only people who worried about another attack, improved the emergency systems, communications within the buildings, and took the other measures that allowed 90% of those in the buildings on September 11 to get out unharmed. No one remembers to mention how many lives the management saved, but they did.

Still, his homelessness, chronic or not, just shouldn’t ever into this argument. He made a stupid statement, fine, call him out. But throwing the fact that he is homeless at him is pointless, and hurtful, even if he “had it coming.” It serves no one in the long run. And no, I am not telling anyone what they can or cannot say, just stating my preferences.

Y’all are grown-ups.

Thousands can thank John O’Neill for their lives that day.

I don’t believe I mentioned it until the rest of you had been discussing it for a while. Not explicitly, not implicitly, not as subtext. But I did, and I do, call bullshit on his argument.

NM, no, you didn’t, and I agree that it was a bullshit thing to say. But there does seem to be more than a little bit of preening over this tragedy. Not with the people like Ginger or others that felt a bond through the remembrance, but the networks have been shameless in their exploitation. Forget Pearl Harbor, we ain’t even talking about Virginia Tech anymore. Or Minnesota. Or Oklahoma City. None of those were less tragic.

Still, his homelessness, chronic or not, just shouldn’t ever into this argument.

As they say in the courtroom:

He opened the door.

I wouldn’t ever say “you’re homeless so you can’t have an opinion.”

I WILL say “you’re homeless and that lifestyle does have a bearing on your decision to call other people hedonistic, selfish and spoiled.”

Well, they’re the networks, for goodness sake. Preening and short attention span is what they do. Trust me, on the next anniversary of the VA Tech shooting, no one will remember the towers. I’m cool with people complaining about the networks, and I’d be even more cool with some ideas about how to fix them. That’s no excuse for Kevin.

I’d be even more cool with some ideas about how to fix them.

I’m exercising my free-market rights to consume news elsewhere.

It’s not much, but it’s a start.

Opening the door is a legal argument consideration, and has little bearing on a conversation between ordinary folks. The idea here is not to “win”, but to have yourself heard, and listen to others, learn, and teach, even, but we aren’t supposed to be looking for a favorable ruling at the end.

His middle paragraph screwed up an otherwise spot on observation, IMO. 9/11 didn’t have more of an impact on me than did Oklahoma, or the others I mentioned, senseless violence on any scale is all equal, at least to me.

Fix the networks? Easy. Hire Aaron Sorkin .

The idea here is not to “win”, but to have yourself heard, and listen to others, learn, and teach, even, but we aren’t supposed to be looking for a favorable ruling at the end.

Is that what you think I, or anybody, was looking for, Mack? Well, you’re mistaken.

First of all, my post was linked here, and I am always very happy to learn about yours and others’ viewpoints. However, I have every intention of defending my viewpoint just as much as you do yours.

It goes both ways, ya know?

I’m exercising my free-market rights to consume news elsewhere.

Well, sure, but I’d like to have another option, ya know?

The idea here is not to “win”, but to have yourself heard, and listen to others, learn, and teach, even, but we aren’t supposed to be looking for a favorable ruling at the end.

Thanks for the unsolicited dictum regarding the “idea here”. Where would we be without Edward James Almost laying down the law?

Fix the networks? Easy. Hire Aaron Sorkin .
Yes, what the networks need are more shows no one will watch that proclaim their superiority by virtue of being smarter than the audience that isn’t watching.

Read my opening paragraph. It should be obvious what I was addressing.

Just because I used a courtroom analogy doesn’t mean I’m “in it to win it”. I’m just pointing out that while we’re all doing this talking, learning and sharing business there are some of us who feel like if we’re going to be accused of hedonism those accusations are a little precious coming as they do from someone who lives off the dole.

Whoa. Switched ideas midstream.

Meant to say:

if we’re going to be accused of hedonism, we have the right to say that those accusations are a little etc.

If Aaron Sorkin was half as good as he thinks he is, he’d write brilliant TV.

[…] week to reading others’ opinion about how others should or shouldn’t mourn death or grieve tragic events, with discussions from open caskets to network news coverage, is because of September 17th.  This […]