What does Jesus think? Heh.

Jesus called, he wants his religion back.

Jesus would say that my true Christianity isn’t from a power over side. True Christians shouldn’t seek power to rule, but should seek to undercut structures that are designed to fail, so to speak. I think he’d say governments can an often are used by God for judgement, but that followers of the way know better than to put their trust and support in chariots and horses, in automatic weapons and nukes. They put their trust in the Lord and continue working to bring his Kingdom on earth. But that kingdom, again, isn’t one where force is ever considered. Its a place where people beat their swords into plowshares, where war and violence have ended. Where people love each and every person on this planet like they were their best friend, parent, spouse, or child, and are unwilling to kill in order to save their own life.

They are willing to stand in the face of the pharisees of the day who claim Christ but are sleeping with state. They stand up to those who think that through force, government can create equity. They realize that equity doesn’t come through material blessings, but through living life the way it was meant to be led.

Jesus would see Christians giving away everything for some temporary security from their government. People who don’t trust in the resurrection, and because of that, support the government in the murder of those who stand in the way of its empire (or those who have no choice of where they are born, and just happen to be in the way).

I’m sick and tired of the Mark Rose’s of this world screaming about Christianity from the rooftops because they don’t worship the God that I do. The God I worship doesn’t gloat in the death of evil men. The God I worship doesn’t approve of statism, and the idea that we are some how a Christian nation. The God I worship loves Americans just as much as he loves an AIDs stricken individual in Africa, a peasant in South America, or Osama bin Laden.

If you claim to follow Jesus’s example, it should be this. That you are willing to speak truth to power, that we don’t practice Christianity to get salvation, but that living as a citizen of the Kingdom of God IS salvation. And you’ve got to be willing to be killed, rather than kill, for what you believe. That’s what Christianity is about, and that’s why it spread life wildfire, and that is why its dying today. Because people are once again worshipping false gods of state, consumerism, political party, and religious demagogue.

Sorry for the rant.

Jesus spoke to the individual. He never preached to the Romans. In fact, he never compelled anybody, not even his followers, to do anything. When he said to take care of the poor, the children, and widows, he was talking to us as individuals, not Caesar. At no time did Jesus tell his people to rob others and then give the money to the poor. Everything Jesus spoke of was aimed at the individual.

These kind of posts and the thinking behind them are the worst kind of left wing theocracy. You take the Gospel of Christ and use it to justify taking someone’s property at the point of a gun and redistributing their wealth. This is exactly why I support keeping all religion out of politics. The liberals are the worst theocrats of all. Government should not be in the business of forced benevolence or forced morality. Government should do one thing and that is protect it’s citizens.

What is so sick about all of this, is that a lot of the people making these arguments are not only not Christian, but they are venomously anti-Christian.

The bumper sticker philosophers may be closer to reality than we think. I saw one a few days ago that said something like, “When Jesus said ‘love your enemies’, I am pretty sure he didn’t mean bomb the hell out of them.”

So Paul, are you saying that to be a true Christian, you have to be a complete pacifist and oppose all wars, even when under attack, or is it just this “immoral” one?

I think its pretty clear that as a Christian, individually, you should eschew war, Glen. Romans 12 is pretty clear about it, in my opinion. That, and the fact that the early church denied communion to those that killed in battle.

Now, does that mean governments should be pacifists? No. Absolutely not. God uses nations to judge other nations. However, since we don’t know when God is using a nation to judge, or is judging one, Christians shouldn’t participate or support it. There is no way to love your enemies when you support destroying them. No redemption can happen there.

Jesus whole life called us to a life of what you call “pacifism” and I and others call “non violent resistance”. Jesus message was absolutely political, but not in the way one would think. He had no intentions of over throwing the government. What he did, essentially, by doing nothing wrong, but letting the government kill him, was showing the injustice in that system, and showing us how to respond to injustice. Not with more violence, but with more love. And because he was resurrected, we have that hope as well. And that hope should give us the strength to refrain from the myth of redemptive violence that has overtaken the world.

Substitutionary atonement was only part of Christ’s death. Surely God could have thought of another way to do that. The reason Jesus died on a cross was a political statement… essentially a big wake up call to people that what is going on is not how its supposed to be. But it can be, if you’re willing to die rather than to use violence against another.

Glen,
I am fresh out of litmus tests for ‘true Christians’. War, however, represents failure on the part of humanity (Christian or otherwise) on many levels.

Justin, if somebody is breaking into your home to harm your wife or child, do you believe it is okay to stop that person with violence, or should you just lay down and tell that person how much you love him, while he is raping your wife? Perhaps you will call an armed police officer.

It’s good to be a pacifist in America where you are protected by the non-pacifists. Being someone who believes that some things and some people are worth protecting, I don’t have a problem living right beside you guys, but if I ever have a daughter, I pray to God she stays away from you.

Btw, bet your not a big fan of John Eldridge’s book “Wild at Heart”.

About the rest of what you said concerning Jesus and politics, you are exactly why, as a Christian, I relate more to people like Reason Over Religion, or even Christopher Hitchens, and especially Ayn Rand. No matter how you word it, you base your political beliefs, a form of theocracy, on your interpretation of faith. That’s dangerous and a recipe for the very thing you hope to avoid.

if somebody is breaking into your home to harm your wife or child, do you believe it is okay to stop that person with violence, or should you just lay down and tell that person how much you love him, while he is raping your wife?

Are those the only two choices?

I guess I’d fail that quiz because i would stop them without violence.

I actually don’t think that ALL religious influence is necessarily bad. I am fully aware that some institutions of faith serve community needs in a generally positive way. I just don’t want them making public policy, and neither did our wise framers. I also believe there is some timeless wisdom contained in scripture. I think consulting scripture for guidance is fine, provided we allow it to be debated openly. But needing to figure out how every last bit applies to our times? Whatever. I think we’ll get more mileage out of common sense and basic respect for humanity.

Since money is a tool whereby people with power extract wealth from those with less power, I’m all about “The love of money is the root of all evil”. Many jewish dietary laws make sense if you are watching your sodium and cholesterol. “Love your enemy”, not sure about that so much.

Where I get ruffled is when people give in to the temptation to “play God” by claiming to speak for him.

If “God” has anything to say, let’s hear it from him.

As far as I am concerned, a little critical thinking draws into question the very existence of “Jesus”:

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd.html

But to answer the question: until Jesus gets here, we can’t know with certainty what he would say.

Wow, Justin. You’ve written one of the most compelling comments I have read in a long time. This is the good stuff, stuff worth thinking about.

RoR: You’ll laugh you ass off at me, but some things just require faith. Jesus is one of them. (BTW, not telling you to have faith, just pointing out that I happen to.) Big guys in the sky that require all kinds of weird rules do seem totally crazy when looked at from a logical standpoint. But things like unconditional love look weird too, when looked at from a totally logical standpoint. Not really trying to convince you, just trying to point out where I’m coming from.

I guess I’d fail that quiz because i would stop them without violence.

How honest are you being? When you make these comments, it makes it difficult to believe anything you write. If that is sincere, maybe we should ask “WWDD?” Mortal men have two choices, fight or flight. So are you saying you would run? Or perhaps talk them into submission?

How honest are you being? When you make these comments, it makes it difficult to believe anything you write. If that is sincere, maybe we should ask “WWDD?” Mortal men have two choices, fight or flight. So are you saying you would run? Or perhaps talk them into submission?

How about the “take my shit and get out” route? That’s the one I chose, when I was robbed at gunpoint.

Yes, there is a third choice, that one does not occur to me because it involves trust. I don’t trust criminals. But I am glad it worked out for you. That had to be a terrifying experience.

It was seriously one of the most horrible things that has ever happened to me. The worst part, other than the whole, I was scared to death part, was the fact that there were plenty of guns in the house, but I was totally unclear as to which ones were loaded, etc. So for the next several weeks I got to hear my ex husband ask, “Why didn’t you just shoot them?”

Which is why I’ve decided that if we’re going to have a gun, *I* am going to buy it and know how to shoot it, clean it, etc, etc, etc. I don’t know if I can shoot a person or not. But I think I’d at least like to have the option.

Justin,
Interesting stuff, but this is a BIG stretch, Substitutionary atonement was only part of Christ’s death. Surely God could have thought of another way to do that. The reason Jesus died on a cross was a political statement… There’s no basis for that, even trying to equate “political statement” with “wake-up call” that things can be better.

But I think it is important to note that Paul said God gave gov’t the sword, and we, as citizens in a democratic republic are responsible to “wield the sword.”

But God’s character, as manifested at least up to Christ’s life, is certainly consistent with wiping out the earthly existence of ANY human or ANY nation. Life on earth is but a speck on the timeline of eternity, and eternity is what God is (and we ought to be) most concerned about.

No Ivy, I’m not laughing at you at all. If faith helps you get through the day, you have my “blessings”. Simple faith does no harm.

I don’t operate on the principle of “unconditional love”, but rather what I have called on numerous occasions “respect for common humanity.” Basically it means that I wish no harm on those that wish no harm on me.

I think this principle is a more realistic approach to the issue of ethical conduct than “unconditional love”.

I don’t know if I can shoot a person or not. But I think I’d at least like to have the option.

I know how you feel. It wasn’t until a member of my family was threatened by a maniac that I understood what I could do if forced to. The cops said they couldn’t do anything. No proof. They actually told me to go to a biker bar and get a “consultant” to fix the problem. I knew what they meant. I spent a lot of time at the range after that. I wish we could all get along. It’s just the criminals have different ideas.

RoR!, (Glen?),
I guess I need to be careful not to walk into a hit-dog-howls situation, but just because someone bases some of their presuppositions on non-natural principles doesn’t mean that they’re legislating morality or pursuing a theocracy. I feel I have an obligation to persuade re. policy beyond asserting that some sacred text purports to say on the subject. But even RoR! and secularists in general have to appeal to something outside of/beyond the physical world (yes, even something beyond “reason” because it is IMPOSSIBLE to “prove” that one course of action is “right”) in asserting the “morality” or “rightness” of a given policy proposal.

But I think it is important to note that Paul said God gave gov’t the sword, and we, as citizens in a democratic republic are responsible to “wield the sword.”
But God’s character, as manifested at least up to Christ’s life, is certainly consistent with wiping out the earthly existence of ANY human or ANY nation. Life on earth is but a speck on the timeline of eternity, and eternity is what God is (and we ought to be) most concerned about.

Folks,

This is the type of mumbo jumbo that motivated me to start my blog.

And lastly (probably not), this is a false choice/dichotomy: “hate kids or support SCHIP.” Who says that gov’t-funded health insurance is better for children, or cheaper in the long run, or the most compassionate option, or a just basis for taking money from certain citizens, (or even going to cover children)?

Are you saying there’s no basis biblically for it? I don’t understand Ned.

Glen,

I would do anything I could to stop the person without using violence. If it absolutely came down to it, I don’t know if I’d used violence. I’d like to say I wouldn’t, but on the off chance that that happens to me I don’t know.

I recently read a story from an author named Shane Claiborne, who lives in an inner city neighborhood working with the youth. He and a young boy were walking and four teens began walking behind him and throwing things at them. One with a broomstick.

Eventually, they caught up with them and struck the boy with the broomstick. Shane yelled out to them “Jesus has made you for something better than this” and the guys dropped their makeshift weapons and walked away. It doesn’t happen every time like that, but that’s where faith in the resurrection comes. Its pretty simple, if you believe in it, why would you fear dying?

And Glen, can you get out of your head that politics means democracy and elections, etc. I have no desire to institute my ideas on the country. I am a libertarian/anarchocapitalist. I think that governments are pretty much evil, in most aspects. They are, a semi necessary evil, but they are not what God intended. Remember the Israelites arguing for a king? Remember King Saul?

Would I call the police? Eventually, if something were stolen or someone was hurt. If someone comes into my house, I’m going to respond to the humanity within them. Even the most “evil” people have humanity. And they deserve dignity. And maybe the reason they are robbing or raping is because people haven’t shown them dignity before. I also heard a story recently about a family who was eating in the backyard when a man with a gun came over their fence and demanded their money and rings. The man who was at the table asked the guy what his name was and if he’d like some wine. The guy agreed. Once he sat down and began conversing with the people there, he said, “Man, I must have picked the wrong people to rob”

Like I said, things don’t always work out that way. But its clear to me, and should be clear to anyone that reads the bible with some historical context, that that was the message of the Kingdom of God. There is no longer male or female, jew or greek, rich or poor, all are one in Christ. And when you live life with that mindset, a lot of stuff is going to change. And when you come into contact with those that don’t live by that mindset, that’s the being in the world but not of the world thing. Your worldview runs counter to the one of the world. The one that glorifies the state as god, that constantly puts people into us and them categories. That craves power and material weath. That world, we are shown through Christ, is not the way things were ever supposed to be.

And so we live life like things are supposed to be, against the grain of a world that things we’re irrational and strange because we love even those that persecute us. We’re willing to die rather than kill. We dine and commune with those society views as outcast. The marginalized. The poor.

Jesus came to set an example, declare forgiveness of sins (which he did before he died on the cross… how could that happen substitutionary atonement folks?)and set in motion a countercultural revolution that would eventually bring things back to the way they were supposed to be.

I realize this is scattered, but for theology, for some reason, I can’t just write a comment, but need to sit down and organize a paper in order to completely get my thoughts across.

Justin pretty much said what I would say, except for this:

Those of you, like William, who would like us to keep our religion out of politics have little business inserting your politics into our religion.

RoR!,
You’ve got a blog?

Those of you, like William, who would like us to keep our religion out of politics have little business inserting your politics into our religion.

Oh Snap.

Thank you Kat. I have been searching for how to say that.

Justin,
Yes, I’m challenging the biblical basis for saying that Christ’s death was a “political statement.” This statement provides a little along those lines: ” Jesus came to set an example, declare forgiveness of sins (which he did before he died on the cross… how could that happen substitutionary atonement folks?)”; I need to mull that over a little, but there are a couple of dimensions to forgiveness for sins and atonement for sins–I’m not sure the terms are synonymous.

And regarding use of force if your home was invaded, are you saying “maybe it would be acceptable” or “maybe you would ’sin’ and do it”?

But I think it is important to note that Paul said God gave gov’t the sword, and we, as citizens in a democratic republic are responsible to “wield the sword.”

But God’s character, as manifested at least up to Christ’s life, is certainly consistent with wiping out the earthly existence of ANY human or ANY nation. Life on earth is but a speck on the timeline of eternity, and eternity is what God is (and we ought to be) most concerned about.

As to Paul talking about the government and the sword (Romans 13) you need to check out (and read 13 in the context of) Romans 12, that pretty much states how Christians are to live.

7Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

You’re right that some crazy stuff went down in the Old Testament. Many respected scholars wonder if the Israelites added that stuff on their own, and others say that that was God acting as an ultimate judge of a nation, something no Christian has the authority to do.

And as to the eternity thing… sure, our lives are a small blip of forever, but I’d like to see a verse that says God cares about eternity rather than the here and now. That’s bad theology that’s permeated Western thought over the last couple centuries. If God’s whole plan was just to get us in heaven, then why did Jesus live for 33 years? Why the need when he could just come down, get himself killed, and be done with it? Its because God wanted to redeem the world he created, not just harvest souls for some place that exists in an alternate dimension. His plan is to bring the earth back to its uncorrupted state.

[…] 25th, 2007 by Katherine Coble I said it over at MCB and I’ll say it again over here. Those of you, like William, who would like us to keep our […]

I’m saying if I harmed a person in order to save my family, or myself, I would feel like I sinned, yes. Same as Bonhoeffer, who was a pacifist, yet tried to assasinate Hitler, and thought he would go to hell for it.

God uses nations to judge other nations. However, since we don’t know when God is using a nation to judge, or is judging one, Christians shouldn’t participate or support it.
This line of reasoning makes non-believers into God’s mercenaries. God’s people can’t do what needs to be done, so it’s a good thing the heatens are around to do his dirty work. Somehow I don’t think His standards are a lot different for non-believers than they are for believers. I just don’t imagine God being willing to let a non-believer dirty themself in a way that he won’t abide in a believer.

The dirty truth is that if you live in a world with people who have a different value system, or no value system, you can’t always live a biblically pure life. How often do you think violent confrontations are going to turn out like the two stories you’ve shared where the confronters changed their mind?

Let’s make it simple…. You’re confonted with someone willing to use force to make you submit to their will. Give up your possessions, your body, your loved ones… whatever. You have two basic options. You do what they want or you don’t. If you choose not to do what they want are you willing to resort to violence if they are?

Oh, and it seems like you’re saying that law enforcement is tantamount to mistreating the the “outcast” or “downtrodden”–you’re not equating those terms with “criminal,” are you?

Where did you pick that up Ned? Give me a quote cause I can’t find where you’d pick thatout.

The dirty truth is that if you live in a world with people who have a different value system, or no value system, you can’t always live a biblically pure life. How often do you think violent confrontations are going to turn out like the two stories you’ve shared where the confronters changed their mind?

Very good points.

I’m waiting for blackflag to come in, because this is where we’d fight about libertarianism and Christianity.

But it is where I would point out–as I often do–that the much-revered Jesus told us to “render unto Caeser”.

As Christians I believe we are to submit to all authority–including the government.

I happened to think we’re deucedly lucky to have a government right now in which we have something of a say.

I also happen to think that the Russians got it right when they said “Pray to God but row for shore.”

I think God applauds cautionary measures and protectionary measures in His people. I lock my doors; I don’t pray over the threshhold. I work for a living; I don’t just pray for food to show up. I go to doctors when I’m sick; I don’t just anoint with oil. I’ve trained in the use of firearms; I don’t just expect the police to do my shooting for me if a madman threatens my loved ones.

As poignant a character as M. Myriel is, I think it’s fine for a bishop to behave that way. If he wants to give the silver to a thief in order to win souls to Christ that’s just excellent.

But I think if God has given you a family to protect it is your responsibility to protect them with more than just your faith.

I’ve trained in the use of firearms; I don’t just expect the police to do my shooting for me if a madman threatens my loved ones.

Yeah, but not everyone has the personality and/or ability to shoot an instruder. I don’t think, that just because someone cannot shoot an intruder, that they’re not trying to protect their family or just sitting around waiting for the police to come protect them. I mean, really, that’s what the police are for, to protect people.

You submit to it where you can, Kat.

But when government acts in unjust ways, you have to speak out.

That’s why the early Christians were persecuted. Because saying “Jesus is Lord” back then was a slap in the face to the Roman Emperors. It was treason. Caesar was looked upon as a god. The good roman citizens, instead of saying “God bless America” said “Caesar is Lord”. It was a test of patriotism, and if you put anything before that, you were going to be martyred.

Basically, Christians were saying, we will pay you your taxes, but you are not our master. We voluntarily give you the little that we have, but we know there is another king, one who rules in our hearts, one who knows our pain, and one who has shown us the way to true freedom.

not everyone has the personality and/or ability to shoot an instruder.

I shot an instrudel outside of Reno, just to watch it glaze over.
.

Good post Katherine at Just Another Pretty Farce.

do you think Jesus would veto health care for kids because it was too expensive while approving funding for killing kids in Iraq?

I think it’s easy to be generous when your Daddy made the universe.
JC escapes the problem of having to budget and prioritize. Also, we are talking about budgeting OTHER peoples’ money. That’s not the same thing as spending your own money.
It’s a facetious comparison.

Also, we are talking about budgeting OTHER peoples’ money.

Actually, we’re talking about borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars — not budgeting — and sticking your kids, their kids, and their kids’ kids with the bill.
.

Or just printing it out of thin air to make the wall street guys weathly, while deflating the value of the currency so that the poor who are some of the last to get the monopoly money, actually get poorer because of inflation.

I’ve never been one to jump on the “government makes the rich get richer and the poor get poorer” bandwagon about tax cuts, but the federal reserve money creation is about the most regressive thing I can think of.

Ivy,

Police are not obligated to offer protection. Their job is to collect evidence and apprehend criminal suspects. Police may take an oath to protect, but I know of no case where police were held accountable to the public for failing to provide protection.

FWIW, gun control means those that have the guns are in control.

I do love some Welfare Jesus. Cashing that big Food Stamp In The Sky.

Jesus can’t tell you not to have an abortion. He can’t tell you not to be gay.

In fact, Big Jesus Government gets criticized if he says you shouldn’t hand out birth control to 11 year olds.

But boy, does he love signing entitlement checks with Caesar’s money.

For God so loved the world that he gave it somebody else’s son.

FWIW, gun control means those that have the guns are in control.

Actually gun control refers to sight alignment and trigger pressure. Gun control is hitting the target.

I thought I commented in this thread. Did I get lost in spam hell? Oh, well.

I’ll go in inverse order. War? I do not know about THIS particular war anymore, but I belive there is a certain nobility in defending the weak and oppressed, even if it means resorting to violence to do so. Jesus sacrificed his own life -you can’t tell me He would be happy if we were walking down the street and happened to see a man beating a woman with a crowbar, and went on our merry way. It’s the same way with nations, I think. Like I said, I don’t know if THIS war fits that description, but there is such a thing as a noble war, for the right causes.

As for the other, please do not remake Jesus in your own image. He NEVER petitioned the government to help the poor, nor did He ask his followers to do so. He modeled how His followers are to model compassion, and it’s hands on, not through some impersonal beaurocray. Just MHO.

Yeah, but not everyone has the personality and/or ability to shoot an instruder. I don’t think, that just because someone cannot shoot an intruder, that they’re not trying to protect their family or just sitting around waiting for the police to come protect them.

Neither do I; I was specifically answering Justin’s point–and the point that many libertarians like blackflag seem to make–that Christian Libertarianism is not necessarily interchangeable with pacifism.

The argument many Christian libertarians make is that we are to eschew ALL forms of force. They see BOTH the police AND the use of a gun as a form of force.

I’m NOT a wholesale pacifist.

Slarti, you’d make a beautiful libertarian.

Justin: beautifully, wonderfully said. Thank you for shining some light into the darkness, and please know that even though the pearls you cast may be ignored (or even ridiculed) by the some, there are many of us who agree.

I will only add that non-violent resistance is different from pacifism. Furthermore, non-violent resistance is the only truly effective form of resistance. A blast from a shotgun (for example) may stop the would-be murderer from killing your family, but the shotgun bearer still has to live with the consequences of his or her actions. (I realize many people would argue that such an action wouldn’t bother them in the least, especially not where the life of someone they love is at stake, but I seriously doubt the authenticity of such claims.) Violence — in all forms — is a sign of weakness and ignorance.

Oh, and violence always, always begets more violence.

Blackflag:

Your comments really do deserve ridicule, scorn, and mockery.

violence always begets more violence

No, sometimes violence just stops an attack.

But it is where I would point out–as I often do–that the much-revered Jesus told us to “render unto Caeser”.

Jesus did say that, of course, but interpreting that to mean Christian people are supposed to submit to government authority is a gross misinterpretation of the meaning of the passage.

Jacques Ellul said it best: “Jesus does not say that taxes are lawful. He does not counsel obedience to the Romans. He simply faces up to the evidence. But what really belongs to Caesar? The excellent example used by Jesus makes this plain: Whatever bears his mark! Here is the basis and limit of his power. But where is this mark? On coins, on public monuments, and on certain altars.” In other words, Caesar, as well as all rulers of this world, are ultimately powerless.

Regardless of right or wrong, if you so much as threaten my wife or son, I’ll kill you. Not a good enough Christian for you? I don’t care. I won’t threaten you and I won’t harm you. I might even take up arms to protect you from an invader, so that you can continue to practice your style of religion.

It was violence that ended slavery, and violence that ended German fascism. Don’t be so hard on violence.

Blackflag, I just recently finished watching Ken Burns’ The War. The next to last episode was a climax of sorts. The poor little girl (who is an old lady now), who was imprisioned with thousands of others in Manilla absolutely broke my heart.

When she knew “her boys” were coming to set her free, when she could hear the guns, when she begged her starving mother to just hold on, it touched me in a way I cannot describe.

Yes, there was violence, horrible violence.

They were set free. They lived.

I am writing an Advent sermon about this time of waiting, as they heard the guns and bombs.

Sometimes, not often, but sometimes it’s worth it.

Violence didn’t end slavery, Glen. Most western nations ended slavery without a weapon. The people stood up and said that it was evil, and it was over with.

There was only violence in America because Abraham Lincoln was a huge federal government guy. He attacked his own people because they wanted to exercise their right to leave the Union.

It was the act of a brutal dictator. Not a benevolent man who just wanted to end slavery.

Back to the original question: 1- Would Jesus veto healthcare for kids?

uh… Last time I checked Bush didn’t instantly eliminate healthcare for everyone under 18. He vetoed and EXPANSION of INSURANCE because it would be socialism for the government to come in and take business from health insurance companies.

2 - While approving funding for killing kids in Iraq?

Again, when did the President say he wanted to see Iraqi kids die??? The reason I voted for President Bush is because he is keeping the fighting off American soil. We have two options: Fight terrorists in America (more event’s like 9/11), or we can fight terrorists on foreign soil (Iraq and Afghanistan). For those of you who want to say Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism, your just wrong. WMD’s were found in Iraq, and we know Iraq hosted Al Quada training camps. Just because Saddaam didn’t know the plans for 9/11 doesn’t mean he was innocent.

With all that said, I do’nt know the answer. Your question should really be does Jesus want to see American’s roll-over and be killed simply because weare infedels (aka Christian’s)? Or does he want us to protect ourselves at gunpoint?

I can’t say I have the answer’s. I trust Jesus to guide me, and love PResident Bush because I know he put’s his faith in Jesus to guide him too.

Ok, I read about half the comments and then came down here to make my own. People got off the subject real quick like.

There is biblical reference here - what Jesus said. Someone asked Jesus if people should pay taxes. Jesus said, “whose picture is on the money?” It was a picture of caesar - a symbol of the government. Then He said, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar, and to God what is God’s.” If the money in your possession has a picture of the government - maybe it even says “United States” on it - then you should give that to the government. And then you can focus on giving to God then things that belong to God. Like your trust.

There certainly is some confusion here. The people who what to hurt our country, are not angry at us for our faith or beliefs, but because of the things we have done that are not in line with our faith or beliefs. They don’t hate us for believing in Jesus but because of the things we have done that are contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

Violence didn’t end slavery, Glen. Most western nations ended slavery without a weapon. The people stood up and said that it was evil, and it was over with.

This must be a “this is your brain on religion” thing. You can convince yourself to believe anything you want, just because you are willing to believe.

I am pretty sure the Confederate constitution did not stand up and say that slavery was evil.

As for Lincoln, he did not attack “his own people”. He followed standard protocol as to how America deals with other nations on the same continent competing for resources.

michaelinLV:

Unfortunately the site rules prohibit me from giving you the response you deserve, so I will just go back to the old standby:

Do you have any evidence to support your claims, or are you too just, “willing to believe.”

And here I thought the old hebraic scholars parsing the Talmud were good at drawing very narrow conclusions.

So, Jesus doesn’t enjoin us to pay taxes but he does enjoin us to support our righteous, GODLY and christian president in the prosecution of the war on Iraq? Okay, I’m very confused.

Ror, what are you talking about regarding the site rules?

Moreover, what evidence are you looking for, evidence regarding the discovery of WMD’s?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50746

Proof regarding Saddaam’s ties to Al-Qaeda?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/

Before you tell me these stories are old, you’re right, this is old news. No need to report new stories on old news. If that’s still not enough, let me take a page from the 9/11 commission report:

“In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the initiative.
In March 1998, after Bin Ladin’s public fatwa against the United States,
two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence.
In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with
the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps
both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin’s Egyptian
deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was
under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air
attacks in December.”

So violence did end Nazi-ism. Right?

MichaelinLV:

The administration already had plans to invade Iraq BEFORE 9/11.

Speaking of WMD, another “axis of evil” target, North Korea, was confirmed to have NUCLEAR WEOPANS, and yet we invaded Iraq against the approval of virtually the entire international community. There is a name for nations that behave this in this fashion: aggressors.

Anyone who applies a modicum of critical thinking is likely to realize that Iraq is about money and resources. Saddam was a thug, like Kim Jong Il, but he was not Jihadest. He just made the mistake of deciding to sell his oils for euros instead of dollars, like Iran has been contemplating as well.

Your “sources” are government propaganda. The meeting you cite is hardly evidence of a relevant alliance between Bin Laden and Saddam. After all, Rumsfeld shook Saddam’s hand with a smile on his face. But it’s a moot point because the Iraq invasion was planned from the beginning of the Bush presidency.

http://loosetncanon.blogspot.com/2007/09/more-proof-bush-lied-to-america.html

But you can justify any behavior as long as it is “the will of God”.
http://loosetncanon.blogspot.com/2007/10/war-profiteers-no-rules.html

So are you saying you would run? Or perhaps talk them into submission?

Tell you what, Number9. If we ever meet in person, you have my permission to attack me. We’ll count how many times I have to put you on the floor before you decide violence isn’t the best option with me.

So violence did end Nazi-ism. Right?

Yes it did. With alot of death and blood shed. In the few places where non-violence was tried against the Nazis, it was also successful, with significantly less bloodshed.

Tell you what, Number9. If we ever meet in person, you have my permission to attack me. We’ll count how many times I have to put you on the floor before you decide violence isn’t the best option with me.

Adding Dolphin & #9 to the list of “Non-Celebrity Blogger Death Match” fighters. Coming soon!

Michael in LV: Here are the site rules ROR is referencing. Learn them, love them, live them.

michaelinLV

This type of kool-aide drinking buffooney and misinformation as esposed by this commenter is proof that the right wing truly suffers from a sad and even despicable and foolish simple lack of knowledge - which is seeming to become a hallmark of right wing political thought these days.

I can’t believe what I’m reading from this person. These BS stories were debunked years ago yet these peopl still, out of abject ignorance keep on believeing.

First link by michaelinLV:

- The Santorum WMD claim of 500 munitions with mustard or sarin agents way described by David Kay, UN weapons inspector - “experts on Iraq’s chemical weapons are in ‘almost 100 percent agreement’ that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be dangerous. ..It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen sink at this point,” Kay said.

Some proof of WMD aye michaelinLV ? ! ?

Regarding the Iraq al Qaeda connection - you can now research all of the Bush Administration’s 237 lies leading up to the Iraq war on this Congressional Website:, neatly searchable by speaker (liar) and subject :
http://oversight.house.gov/IraqOnTheRecord/

oh my gosh! this place is just nutty!

Also, notice this “michaelinLV” quotes this bogus and debunked misinformation from worldnetdaily - a “Christian news website”

How appropriate.

Sheesh, even Fox News and our own Defense Dept. have debunked the Santorum WMD claim that michaelinLV continues to believe and post. Thanks michaelinLV for giving us a shining example of right-wing idiocy and ignorance, and I say this with the facts to back it up.

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/20060622_fox_news_santorum_wmd/

oh my gosh! this place is just nutty!

LOL! For reals, yo!

Funny that Santorum released this screaming “WMD Found in Iraq” report the night before the debate and vote in the Senate on withdrawal from Iraq. At the time Santorum was down by 18 points in his Senate race and was later defeated.

Pathetic political tactics. Lies meant for the weak minded among us.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/

Irritating ignorance.

Careful! Pouring salt into the mouths of rightwing zombie lies, and sewing their lips shut can cause thread closure at MCB!
.

JP, this is off topic, but what’s up with the period thing at the end of your comments? Just curious.

oh yeah, we’ve got every reason to just “love” this president. ((barf))

Go pay your taxes, like Jesus commands you!!!

Careful! Pouring salt into the mouths of rightwing zombie lies, and sewing their lips shut can cause thread closure at MCB!

Dammit, JP, bitching about MCB is not allowed in the threads!

Glen,

He’s explained before that it’s some sort of quirk he has.

On another note:

Is it at all possible to have a thread on this board that DOESN’T turn into BushIraqAbortion?

Oh, and what causes thread closure isn’t Speaking Truth to Power or whatever you wanna call it…

It’s people refusing to act like they’ve read the rules and continuing to insult other commenters at a frenetic pace.

It’s people refusing to act like they’ve read the rules and continuing to insult other commenters at a frenetic pace.

I think you’ll need to dig that out and show it to me, ’cause I don’t think that’s what happened.

But in answer to the question just prior, yes. You can always go to a pre-moderated comments section, and only post the stuff you see fit to publish. It’s relatively commonplace in the rightwing blogosphere.
.

JP - exactly. You will never see moderated comments on my blog or on most liberal blogs, but that is the norm on conservative blogs. Most University student newspapers allow unmoderated comments on their stories and opinions, but if you look at newspapers for conservative religious Universities like Liberty, Bob Jones, etc… they don’t allow comments at all.

Family Security Matters, a conservative organization that unabashedly touts fear of terrorists and support for war, came out with “The Ten MOST DANGEROUS Organizations in America”

#2 on the list - American Colleges and Universities
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/challenges.php?id=1385102

This fear that higher education is dangerous is definitive proof that being stupid and uneducated is valued among the authoritarian right, and they should be worried. Awareness and knowledge is harmful to authoritarians who wish to control people through misinformation, hyperbole, cherry-picked facts, etc…

JP - exactly. You will never see moderated comments on my blog or on most liberal blogs, but that is the norm on conservative blogs. Most University student newspapers allow unmoderated comments on their stories and opinions, but if you look at newspapers for conservative religious Universities like Liberty, Bob Jones, etc… they don’t allow comments at all.

Family Security Matters, a conservative organization that unabashedly touts fear of terrorists and support for war, came out with “The Ten MOST DANGEROUS Organizations in America”

#2 on the list - American Colleges and Universities

This fear that higher education is dangerous is definitive proof that being stupid and uneducated is valued among the authoritarian right, and they should be worried. Awareness and knowledge is harmful to authoritarians who wish to control people through misinformation, hyperbole, cherry-picked facts, etc…

I’m posting this again without the link because it got moderated.

79 comments in this thread, can we make it to 100? Go infuriated bloggers Go!

a) there’s a difference between “moderated” and “Akismeted”. Akismet automatically throws out many things with links. The moderators only remove stuff that violates our “no personal attacks on other commenters”rule.

b) for guys who don’t like the “moderated” threads, you sure do hang out here a whole lot.

b) for guys who don’t like the “moderated” threads, you sure do hang out here a whole lot.

Go figure — maybe some of us actually like one another. And sometimes, we manage to have a decent exchange, despite any attempts to meddle, otherwise.
.

Kat,
you’re up late. Thanks for letting me vent unmoderated on the ‘i love Bush and Jesus’ commenter.

JP,
You know, they’ll never allow me to post here on MCB (mommy christian bloggers) after ‘using NiT as a bully pulpit’.

Thanks for letting me vent unmoderated on the ‘i love Bush and Jesus’ commenter.

It didn’t look to me like you called him any names.

If you want to moderate my comments, go ahead. See if I care.

When I turn 18, I am so out of here.

Wow, and MCB comments bitch session and I wasn’t part of it? Amazing. Back to the topic at hand:

if somebody is breaking into your home to harm your wife or child, do you believe it is okay to stop that person with violence…?

Jesus always surprised us, didn’t he? I think the most compelling thing about his life was the radical way he did approach situations like this.

I’m quite certain he would tell us to stop that person with love, not violence. Violence is such a disruptive force on our world, it’s easy to see what kind of “fruits” that tree bears. Violence is the easiest response but Jesus’ life challenges us to eschew the easy solution for the Godly one, the one that offers greater spiritual rewards.

People interested in pursuing this topic more indepth might be interested in Sojourner’s Christians & Non-Violence Group Study Guide.

We always remake God in our own image.

The “Hippie Jesus, Buddhist Guru” version of Jesus has been around for a while now. It turns Him into a one-dimensional cartoon character.

To imply that Jesus would not defend Mary from physical attack, that He would stand there and tell her to turn the other cheek while she’s being beaten, that makes Him into a not-very-worthy-of-worship God.

I’m still getting to know Him after all these years. He is more than Hippie Jesus.

Any takers on my comment about why we should support (Sid)Caeser Bush (rendering unto Caeser, etc.) in his Crusade, but not help the poor and downtrodden amongst us (See: “Sermon on the mount”, the beatitudes, some other stuff folks said Jesus said).

Slartibartfast:

Huh? What about “turn the other cheek”? What about that guy whose ear he replaced after it was lopped off with a sword in the Garden of Gethsemane? Why didn’t he just visit a little Soddom and Gomorrah whup ass on the Romans in Jerusalem?

I’m not a pacifist but I think Jesus was.

To imply that Jesus would not defend Mary from physical attack, that He would stand there and tell her to turn the other cheek while she’s being beaten…

Hmm, not sure what Bible you’ve been reading but in my version that’s exactly what Jesus is saying. You can dismiss it as “hippie Jesus” theology, but no matter what negative label you attach to it, it doesn’t change what it is.

That was my favorite part in the Bible, where Jesus slew the multitude of Roman heathens who defiled Jerusalem.

When Jesus says “take up your cross” he means that he wants you to use the cross like a baseball bat and hit everyone who offends you, with it.

You know, they’ll never allow me to post here on MCB (mommy christian bloggers) after ‘using NiT as a bully pulpit’.

William, do you realize how tacky it is to come on and insult the very forum (and moderators) that you are utilizing to communicate your viewpoints?

This isn’t a free-for-all. Ivy, Kat, me, Hutchmo, Rachel, Kate, ‘coma, Chris, Casey, and others (who I ask to forgive me for not listing each of their names) have invested their time, money, and their hearts into this site.

Ivy & Kat have every right to moderate as they see fit. If you don’t like how they do it, suggestions are welcome. Insults are not. If you can’t handle that, too bad.

I’m sick of reading everybody’s bitching. Too much work has gone into this site for some people to come on here and constantly complain about how it’s being done. It isn’t too much to ask to request that we all behave like adults and not resort to insults on this community forum.

Surely you can handle such a simple request.

I do think that in the interest of ALL Nashville bloggers, the moderators resist the temptation of investing so much of their “heart” into MCB. One bloggers heart shouldn’t be allowed to overrule another’s.

Kevin, it isn’t up to YOU to make that decision.

In a community forum, that is. On your own blog, who cares?

If people are really serious about this Christian non-violence discussion, I’d like to direct them to this wonderful (and short) column by Shane Claiborne. Claiborne is formerly from East Tennessee, some folks here might be familiar with him. I read “Mad Jesus Skilz (Applied Pacifism Isn’t Passive)” last year and found its message transformative.

It’s a very short anecdote about a time when he and an 11-year-old were jumped by thugs as they walked through their inner-city neighborhood in Philadelphia. He talks about how he “bust out a can of holy anger” — and yet his response was very much the kind of thing I expect Jesus would have done.

You mean Hippie Christ wasn’t shaking a tambourine in the Universal Unitarian It’s-Cool-For-You-To-Wear-Blue-Jeans Choir?

I’m sure Jesus only wants us to shop at Whole Foods and buy carbon offsets too. It’s in the Bible. The Queen James version.

Me Me Me - the one hundredth comment!!

Yippie!!

To imply that Jesus would not defend Mary from physical attack

Defense doesn’t necessarily mean violence. We have to stop perpetuating this false dichotomy if human society is going to continue to evolve. Number9 says that mortals can only choose fight or flight. Well I’m pretty mortal, so let’s choose a simple example from my own life: I’m not a big fan of spiders. When I see a spider in my home, according to Number9, I have two choices. I can either run from it (flight) or squash it (fight). But I don’t by into that, so I opt for a third option, displacement. I scoop the spider up on a piece of paper and put him outside. That way he can go on about his reason for being and I can go on about mine. Conflict over. Now I’m the first to admit that it’s not always so easy to displace inappropriate energy, but resorting to violence is rarely if ever necessary.

Well I believe that taking care of the land - land being part of the earth - was part of God’s commandment to be good stewards of the blessing of life that He gave us.

I scoop the spider up on a piece of paper and put him outside. That way he can go on about his reason for being and I can go on about mine. Conflict over. Now I’m the first to admit that it’s not always so easy to displace inappropriate energy, but resorting to violence is rarely if ever necessary.

I don’t think the robber in Ivy’s house could have been “displaced”. Displacing criminals is much more difficult than spiders.

Free country and all that. Glad you have a philosophy dolphin. Do you mind if I have one?

After all that has been said, dolphin, do you think the government should take all the guns away? If it were up to you, would I be able to own a firearm?

It’s not the politics, it’s the petulance. Nobody among the folks Ginger lists cares one whit what any of the commenters’ politics are. We care about whether people can manage to have a discussion without turning it into a game of “gotcha” or a “me, me, me” festival. When people are repeatedly petty, hurling talking points and insults instead of having a conversation, that’s bad for the community of a community blog.

William, your condescending “mommy christian bloggers” comment, aside from being inaccurate, is an excellent example of why you would likely bring even more divisiveness to the site, which is not among the goals for MCB.

Displacing criminals is much more difficult than spiders.

Depends on how you do it I guess. Certainly there’s more at stake so I understand how one could resort to violence out of fear. Fear is a hard thing to overcome.

Do you mind if I have one?

As sure as long as you don’t purport to tell me that all “mortals” must follow yours.

After all that has been said, dolphin, do you think the government should take all the guns away?

Absolutely not.

If it were up to you, would I be able to own a firearm?

If it were up to me, you (and the rest of the world) would feel no need.

I believe in pacifism, especially on a personal level. But, to make it an unbending religious LAW is no different than what the Pharisees did with ritual and dietary laws. Placing a yoke on people’s backs that in no way can they carry in life as it is really lived.

I really believe that pacifism, althought a good thing in general, can be taken to such an extreme (where the weak are not defended) that it is immoral. It can lead to evil.

I hate to sound like a liberal, but I think it’s more “nuanced” than that.

I don’t think the robber in Ivy’s house could have been “displaced”. Displacing criminals is much more difficult than spiders.

And yet it happens. Ashley Smith didn’t have a gun but she was able to keep Brian Nichols from using his on her, non-violently. He’s now in jail where he belongs and she’s experienced a redemption in her own life that she might not have experienced otherwise. God works in very mysterious ways.

Really, Christianity is a defeatist philosophy - in this world anyway. Christians do win in the end, when all the right people are up in heaven and the wrong ones aren’t.

So, it is obvious that our Government is not based on any real Christian precept. That is why the fundamentalists are so full of doo-doo when they claim the USA to be a Christian Nation, and that Christians should take over the Government.

I hate to sound like a liberal, but I think it’s more “nuanced” than that.

Ah yes, what did I just say about God working in mysterious ways?

oh and I should add:

I don’t think the robber in Ivy’s house could have been “displaced”.

Anything can be displaced. Anything. That said. I’m (CERTAINLY) not arguing that there is only 3 choices (fight/flight/displacement). Nor am I arguing that one choice is ALWAYS the course of action. I’m all about options and choices. When you don’t limit your options, you have a much better chance of taking the best course of action.

Is it at all possible to have a thread on this board that DOESN’T turn into BushIraqAbortion?

Well, since both Bush and Iraq were referenced in the post topic it doesn’t make much sense to me to question that course of the conversation. The post is about evaluating the morality of policy including the Iraq invasion, based on the evidence at hand and cultural standards with specific emphasis on Christianity.

Christianity is a defeatist philosophy - in this world anyway.

I don’t agree with that, but I do agree that “Christianity” as defined by the fundamentalists in power today is far removed from the faith I see displayed by a few living saints I know. And none of these living, breathing saints would ever dream of running for political office. That strikes me as the most soul-corrupting exercise I can think of.

Y’all were doing so well having your discussion about Christian principles and leaving us Jews out of it, and then Slarti had to drag us in. Slarti, ask me some time whether I feel that I’m bearing a heavy yoke, OK? You will find that I find my life no more burdensome than pacifists find theirs.

dolphin: you are a follower of an Eastern religion, no? I think I recall something about that. Correct me if I am mistaken.

I ask because of the irony of you being the most level-headed person in a discussion about Christianity and it’s application in the world.

As they say, if you want to know what water is, don’t ask the fish!

I ask because of the irony of you being the most level-headed person in a discussion about Christianity and it’s application in the world.

He WAS a Christian for a long time, is an able theologian and was at one time a Christian missionary.

And yet it happens. Ashley Smith didn’t have a gun but she was able to keep Brian Nichols from using his on her, non-violently. He’s now in jail where he belongs and she’s experienced a redemption in her own life that she might not have experienced otherwise. God works in very mysterious ways.

God must be working in very mysterious ways given all the people he fails to protect when confronted with a life changing act of brutality. Some folks get off scot free, some have their lives permanently ruined. Mysterious indeed.

Crap, so much to say, so little time. Let’s see what I can manage to cobble together for y’all.

I do think that in the interest of ALL Nashville bloggers, the moderators resist the temptation of investing so much of their “heart” into MCB. One bloggers heart shouldn’t be allowed to overrule another’s.

1. While this is a website for the community, it is still owned by a group of people that have decided that they want people to act like grown assed adults on their website and not call each other names and not attack each other on a personal level. Seriously, what is so hard about that?

2. We’re equal opportunity comment killers. I’ve killed one of Ginger’s comments before. I’ve killed one of my cousin’s comments. For all those that believe there is some kind of favoritism going on with the site, that should dispel that thought.

Wow, and MCB comments bitch session and I wasn’t part of it? Amazing.

And just for that, I am so totally buying you a beer someday, Beale.

Finally,

I don’t think the robber in Ivy’s house could have been “displaced”.

I dunno, I think the “Take my shit and get out” route is definitely a form of displacement. I don’t give a rat’s ass about one single thing I own. Don’t get me wrong, I like my stuff as much as the next guy, but when you’re comparing it to being raped or killed, they can have anything they want. I can always buy more shit, but I can’t buy another life and the cost of all the therapy I’d be needing after being raped way exceeds the cost of anything I own that they could carry out.

Ashley Smith didn’t have a gun but she was able to keep Brian Nichols from using his on her, non-violently.

By taking drugs with him. I mean, honestly. I’d rather someone kneecap another person than toke on meth with them.

In the long run it takes less time for a bullet wound to heal.

nm, I was paraphrasing Jesus:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these things ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee….”

[me] He was criticising not the Jews, but the religious leaders who misused the law to hold people down.

Sorry if it seemed like I was insulting the Jewish people. I always assume everyone talks my language.

You know in all honesty, I don’t have a problem with those who interpret Christianity to be outright pacifism. Those people are not harmful to our society, but good for it. I wish everybody were like them. The problem is, everybody isn’t.

Four dead so Ashley Smith could clean up her act.

Praise Jeebus!

Slarti, if I said “stop acting like a Christian” when I meant “stop acting like Francisco Franco (by using religion to hold people down)”, I think some of the commenters on the thread might have some problems with it. So, ya know, I make the distinction. The failure by most Christians to make that distinction when they talk about me and mine is kind of annoying.

I always assume everyone talks my language.

I assume you know what I have to say about that? ;-p

(I couldn’t resist, what with you and I speaking the same langauge…)

Four dead so Ashley Smith could clean up her act.

Exactly.

And this is a problem I have with total pacifism. It both assumes a level playing field and elevates the fortunate into a status of sainthood while conveniently forgetting all those who died while enabling the “pacifist” to feel self-righteous.

dolphin: you are a follower of an Eastern religion, no?

Well, yes and no. I consider myself a follower of all (or I guess I should say most) religions. Kat is correct about my Christian background though.

Four dead so Ashley Smith could clean up her act.

Praise Jeebus!

Er, that’s NOT what I was saying … I think you have to be pretty twisted three ways to Saturday to get to that conclusion from my post.

And anyone who thinks God MADE Brian Nichols go on his rampage SO THAT Ashley Smith could clean up her act has got a pretty bizarre view on how God works, IMHO.

By taking drugs with him. I mean, honestly. I’d rather someone kneecap another person than toke on meth with them.

Why?

dear HBIC, I am not bothered by the removal of certain unproductive comments (are we really being productive here?). I just have an issue with the justification of it as a “heart” thing. It implies a superiority of heartness that I just don’t buy.

Kat is correct about my Christian background though.

See?! I DO try to pay attention.

I think you have to be pretty twisted three ways to Saturday to get to that conclusion from my post.

twisted…or Sarcastro.

But in all honesty, I’ve heard several people in the PDL-reading community either insinuate that point or make it outright.

By taking drugs with him. I mean, honestly. I’d rather someone kneecap another person than toke on meth with them.

Why?

As I said in the very next sentence:

“In the long run it takes less time for a bullet wound to heal.”

Crystal meth is highly addictive–so much so that it often only takes one hit to be hooked.

It’s also highly destructive to almost all the systems of the human body.

A bullet wound to the kneecap does far less damage in the long run.

By all means, explain how god works in your capitalized and possessing of its own acronym, yet still humble opinion.

Kat,
elevates the fortunate into a status of sainthood while conveniently forgetting all those who died while enabling the “pacifist” to feel self-righteous.

Funny. I was just reading about Mother Teresa.

“And anyone who thinks God MADE Brian Nichols go on his rampage SO THAT Ashley Smith could clean up her act has got a pretty bizarre view on how God works, IMHO.”

Agreed. Although I believe that God is able to turn all evils to good, I do not believe God CAUSES the evil.

It’s like in football when the Bills scored with 16 seconds left in the playoffs in 1999. The Titans turned this to good, even miraculous, but that doesn’t mean they wanted the Bills to kick taht field goal.

I don’t have all of the answers, Sarcastro, I’m just telling you how I’ve seen the spirit move in my life. I don’t believe God is the Grand Puppet Master pulling all of us little toy humans around by our strings and handing down divine retribution on the evildoers with one hand while lifting up the righteous with the other. That’s far too simplistic a worldview for me and denies such basic things as human nature, free will, and natural laws.

Which is why arguments like God must be working in very mysterious ways given all the people he fails to protect when confronted with a life changing act of brutality don’t really work with me.

I don’t think being a person of faith means you get to walk through life completely unscathed because the magical mysterious hand of the Lord will intercede whenever something bad happens. But it does change how we respond in such times, it changes how we withstand life’s tragedies, and it gives us compassion.

Funny. I was just reading about Mother Teresa.

I just have an issue with the justification of it as a “heart” thing. It implies a superiority of heartness that I just don’t buy.

Since the word “heart” was the word I used, how about if I substitute it with “ass”…would that be better?

Beale,
All of that just goes to show that whenever some vapid fool trots out “the Lard works in mysterious ways” canard as a way to illustrate some good coming from tragedy, it rings hollow and signifies nothing.

If your compassion requires tragedy to activate, that is a commentary on you, not your invisible pal.

Careful! Pouring salt into the mouths of rightwing zombie lies, and sewing their lips shut can cause thread closure at MCB!

They’ve closed ONE whole thread in the history of MCB. Just because you happened to be involved in that thread doesn’t mean they’re out to get you. Grow up and move on dot org. You’re so progressive, so progress right on past this and act like a big girl.

C’mon Sar! There is a long tradition of mocking and ridiculing Christ that goes back to Good Friday. You are part of a long line of enlightenment thinking, but you are letting your team down. Your religious smack, to put mildly, sucks. Put some heart into it!

You are no Oscar Wilde, you are no Sartre.

Lame.

Give us something we haven’t heard in the last 2000 years.

C’mon! We’re counting on you!

Ivy, sorry about that; delete that last comment if you want - it did get personal.

I need to quit listening to Jim Rome while discussing religion.

And you, sir, are no Thomas Aquinas.

I’m not mocking Jesus or his rapist Daddy just yet.

However, mocking the goobers who think they have divined some sort of heavenly plan or purpose out of natural disasters and man’s cruelty to man, that is in full swing.

They’ve closed ONE whole thread in the history of MCB. Just because you happened to be involved in that thread doesn’t mean they’re out to get you.

“They” = KatCo, y’mean. Ivy seemed fairly shocked at first, but since she and KatCo were “beyond bored” with the thread…
.

If your compassion requires tragedy to activate, that is a commentary on you, not your invisible pal.

I didn’t say it did, Sarc, I didn’t say it did.

I don’t have a problem if you want to be an atheist, to each his own. “The Lord works in mysterious ways” may sound trite and empty, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

I don’t have a problem if you want to be an atheist, to each his own. “The Lord works in mysterious ways” may sound trite and empty, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

To each his own. Right. Islam demands that all must bow before Allah. But, hey, to each his own.

Evangelicals see massive global conflict as a prelude to God’s kingdom on Earth. Hey, to each
his own.

I have no problem with faith in God. It is only when folks start to play God by claiming to speak for him that I get ruffled.

Ginger, Why would you feel it was insulting to be called a mom or a Christian?

Not a damn thing when I’m personally being addressed as such in the right context.

Everybody knows how you meant it, William. Do not try and twist it like you didn’t mean it in a snide way.

Put Slarti’s comment back in, it wasn’t anywhere near insulting enough to meet the standard.

Besides, my comment is lonely without it.

Crystal meth is highly addictive–so much so that it often only takes one hit to be hooked.

If I’m recalling the Ashley Smith story correctly, she already had the drug in her house when Nichols took her hostage, and both had used the drug before this happened. Smith got her life together after the incident and Nichols has been in jail.

Also, I don’t think they spent the entire 30 hours or whatever it was tweaking together. IIRC she also read the Bible to him and that Rick Warren book.

Ginger,
Really? How did i mean it? I didn’t see a lot of others getting offended.

Getting back to the orignal topic of this post, Mark Rose sure got offended when I asked him to square his Christian values with his opinions.

I didn’t see a lot of others getting offended.

Because we all discussed it in email and let Ginger handle it.

But believe me, we all took it for the snide, dismissive, petulant remark which you intended it to be. You asked to be a contributing author and were voted down and now you’re proud to wear that as a badge on your sleeve.

In case you wondered, you were voted down not because you’re a liberal but precisely because you conduct yourself in this manner.

Mark Rose sure got offended when I asked him to square his Christian values with his opinions.

Yeah, boy! Aren’t you teh kewl?!?

You picked a fight with Mark Rose. In the Nashville Blogosphere that’s somewhat akin to making a sex tape with Paris Hilton. Anyone can do it.

Mark Rose = one of the Nashville area’s best and smartest bloggers. As many “Williams” as he pisses off, he must be doing something right.

“They” = KatCo, y’mean. Ivy seemed fairly shocked at first, but since she and KatCo were “beyond bored” with the thread…

The thread was getting ridiculous. I was surprised the thread was closed, but I trust KatCo to make the right decisions, that is why she is the editor in chief.

I’m really in no mood to discuss this anymore today, so I think this may be my last comment on this subject. For today, anyway, ha.

Oh Snap.

You asked to be a contributing author and were voted down and now you’re proud to wear that as a badge on your sleeve.

Really? For real? But you let OddInteger be a contributing author? That sure doesn’t add up.

Thanks Kat for telling me and everyone else how i think.

I’m not mocking Jesus or his rapist Daddy just yet.

I sense some mean-spirited mockery here. But, I’m reading with the judgmental mind of a man, not the loving eyes of Jesus.

My guess is, Sacr, you don’t have a lot of Christian friends…

Mark Rose = one of the Nashville area’s best and smartest bloggers.

He certainly is a blogger.

Serr8, Your guesses are as faulty as your logic.

Or your faith.

Really? For real? But you let OddInteger be a contributing author? That sure doesn’t add up.

Yeah, but he’s made all of, what… one post? Just to let us dirty hippies know that the hall monitor luvs him?

My guess is, Sacr, you don’t have a lot of Christian friends…

Ahem! I am a Christian, and I consider Sarcastro a friend. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with or like everything he says/writes.

Just to let us dirty hippies know that the hall monitor luvs him?

Yes, that’s exactly why we did such a thing…it’s a vast right-wing conspirac