Yes, but we all know the real truth about Ron Silver: he’s actually a bad guy working for NASA, as depicted in this terrific documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lWgXDOAJ5s

Labels, labels, labels.

I’m still wondering where “neo-con” came from.

Pretty funny John. I hadn’t seen that one.

Sorry dude, you’re not a liberal. You’re not even a “crunchy conservative.” You can’t get a pass just because it’s hopelessly uncool to call yourself conservative these days.

I used to live in the same building as Ron Silver’s mother. She’s a little disappointed in him, politically speaking. That’s totally irrelevant to this discussion, but it’s the only chance I’ve had all day to name-drop.

Do you know what a Classical Liberal is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Since you dropped in, let me ask you. I think Ron Silver makes a lot of sense when he writes, “Containment and deterrence are ineffective in this brave new world. There is no containment if you can’t see the enemy; there is no deterrence if the enemy desires death.”

Isn’t Ron Silver correct? A new paradigm is required.

What is your new paradigm? Trust them?

Beale, I didn’t know what a “crunchy conservative” was.

You are right. I am not one. I have never owned a pair of birkenstocks.

I hope I didn’t ruin your day with the Classical Liberal definition. It can be difficult to learn what it really means.

It’s five o’clock somewhere…treat yourself.

Containment and deterrence are ineffective in this brave new world. There is no containment if you can’t see the enemy; there is no deterrence if the enemy desires death.”

Why isn’t the obvious being said in response to this? Is invasion, coupled with the systematic dismantling of our hard won rights the only alternative option? If we “can’t see the enemy”, how will we ever know they are all dead? Who will speak for them to surrender. This is about justifying an ever increasing budget for defense. There are no more conquering armies, so we have to gear up to fight something.

Silver is dead wrong, wrong as Dubya.

Silver is dead wrong, wrong as Dubya.

I have written fighting terrorism is like fighting fog.

But surrender or capitulation is not a solution.

Do you have a solution? We could use one.

As someone that rather enjoys living, and has been in situations where we were not allowed to fire until fired upon, I will vote for pre-emptive strikes every single time.

All of them is not worth one of us.

I don’t think there is any one size fits all solution. But, I think we could be spending resources here, buttoning up holes in our internal and physical security, AND, publicly re-affirm the Rights that Americans value. Had we done this, not only would the whole world marvel at us, they would be willing and able to assist in the systematic capture of known terrorists.

We blew this opportunity to show the world that we will not let any criminal network define how we live.

As long as you are sure who you are striking. We haven’t been sure for a very long time.

OOps, dropped the comment I was responding to…see jay’s comment above. Sorry.

All of them is not worth one of us.

Really?

And they wonder why people fly planes into buildings….

Every time SB. Whether it was my unit then, or my family now, the people entrusted to my care come first.

Do you have a solution? We could use one.

Get off the oil tit. We wouldn’t be in Iraq if we didn’t want their oil. We wouldn’t be meddling in the affairs of foreign governments in general if we didn’t want to steal natural resources for corporate gain. Let’s start focusing on the homefront and tell everyone else to go fuck themselves. We’re in trouble and we need some national “me” time.

Our greatest power is not through guns and bombs but through our wealth. The tiniest bit of conservation on our part has resulted in a lowering of the global price of oil in the past week.

Get off the oil tit, people. Energy independence is a national security issue. When we are self-sufficent, we won’t care about Sunnis or Shiites or any of that crap. They’ll solve their problems much easier when we are out of the picture and not gumming up the works with our own self-interest.

Get off the oil tit, people. I can’t say it enough.

Every time SB. Whether it was my unit then, or my family now, the people entrusted to my care come first.

Damn straight.

Thank you for your service Jay.

I think its reasonable for one to consider themselves a form of “liberal” while still supporting a hawkish foreign policy, though I don’t know what is so “revolutionary” about it.

Liberals in the 1860s supported the war against the Southern Insurgents. FDR supported a war against fascism. Liberals can very well support military actions that involve ourselves in foreign affairs.

The problem with the War in Iraq, was that it was a war based on misinformation…point blank. There was no ongoing genocide to stop. Supporting Democratic movements in foreign countries is one thing, trying to create one because a few people in a think tank thought it would be a good idea, is quite another.

Generally speaking, I would like to promote the spread of liberal democratic republics, but trying to create those movements through shear force of strength is not a winning strategy, imo. Supporting trade with under-developed countries is a good start. That doesn’t mean we give tons of military aide to third world dictators…I’d much rather we beef up our humanitarian aide before increasing military aide.

As for Ron Silver, I think he is a passionate, dramatic person; and has gone about his political re-alignment in a dramatic and passionate way. He has made the effort to make his politics a large part of who he is, so he shouldn’t be surprised when people react to him because of it.

In addition to the oil thing, I’ll say what I said at Bridgett’s place. If we really wanted to end this thing, we’d be using our best weapons. Not guns or bombs (though yes, those do have their uses), but money and culture.

You can’t do much with people who are marginalized and oppressed. You can’t do much with the zealots. But you can do a damn lot with their kids. If we offered education, jobs, and McDonalds, instead of fighting, fighting, and more fighting, we’d see progress.

It’s not just about diplomacy or anything like that (though I’d really like it to be), it’s about the things people want and the things people are willing to fight for. One of the reasons people are constantly complaining about the apathy in this country is because we’re far enough away, and cushy enough in our day-to-day lives that it doesn’t feel real to us. To the people we’re bombing, starving, and otherwise fucking over, there’s no way to ignore that. Every single day is a reminder. If the average person had the ability to live their lives in peace, we’d see a lot less fodder for the crazies to work with. A person with a nice life, a nice TV, and a family that’s realatively sane, stable, and taken care of isn’t going to want to harbor a fugitive - they’ve got too much to lose. A person who’s just seen all of their relatives die because somebody shouted something unappealing is a lot more likely to throw their lot in with whoever offers revenge.

And yeah, all of that takes time. Real diplomacy takes a really long time. Trade takes time, at least if you want it to offer stability and cultural exchange. It looks to me like all we’ve got is time, though. This war doesn’t have an expiration date, it doesn’t have an ascertainable victory condition… it’s on for as long as we can afford it, in all senses of the word. Doing it the other way ’round can’t possibly take longer.

(My anti-colonialist sympathies are currently being rather offended by my suggestion… but if we’re going to be out there anyway, I’d rather we let WalMart be our vanguard than Blackwarer.)

[…] him a liberal. Liberals want to change the world. Ron Silver does and so does President Bush (via MCB): As far as I can tell, my politics, with regard to American foreign policy and projection of […]

I believe they misunderstand how he’s trying to protect us. I believe they misunderstand the nature of the threat. I believe they misunderstand history. If they succeed in dismantling what President Bush has set in motion, the results may well be catastrophic and history will never forgive them.

Protect us? By letting 20 million illegals in? By ratcheting up tension with Russia? By invading a country with an inadequate plan? By ignoring 40 specific warnings of an al Qaeda attack before 9/11 then going on vacation for a month?

RIGHT!! BUSH - THE GREAT
PROTECTOR

hahahahaha

Get off the oil tit. We wouldn’t be in Iraq if we didn’t want their oil.

It is so easy to say that. So simple. I agree with part of the premise. But it is not technologically or economically possible at this moment. Maybe in the future, but we need energy today.

But was oil the reason we were attacked?

The “war for oil” meme is just too simplistic.

Military people tell me they knew Iraq would be in the mix. You have to have a beachhead. Command and control. This was a place where more Intel was known than any place in the Middle East. The U.S. had mapped most of Iraq with GPS.

It was no surprise to me we ended up in Iraq. I commented when the second plane hit New York we were at War. It isn’t a war against Iraq. It is a war against radical Islamic terrorist. Was it a big surprise Saddam took it in the shorts? That was his choice. He had the choice to allow the inspections. He was not gas lighted the way some allege.

Who did you think would be first and second? Syria is a little to close to Israel. Iran was and is a tinder box waiting to explode. A place where the U.S. doesn’t have great Intel.

I don’t think people have grasped this may be a hundred year War. I hope it isn’t. But the one method that has saved the world twice, unconditional surrender, is not applicable to terrorists. Which is exactly the question Ron Silver asks.

I think he asks the question that must be answered if we will prevail and make sure this is not a hundred year war.

SB, to get off the oil teat, we’ll have to open up areas off our coasts that are now under protection. We need to refine more oil from our own “86 billion barrels of oil and 420 trillion cubic feet of gas estimated to be contained in remaining undiscovered fields in the United States” while at the same time working towards developing alternatives.

We can’t just pull the plug now, unless you want try on some nice Amish fashions and field tack. We’re all in this oil dependence thing together, unless you’re powering that box with a treadle generator…

If we offered education, jobs, and McDonald’s, instead of fighting, fighting, and more fighting, we’d see progress.

I used to think the same thing.

Yet that is exactly what Osama bin Laden says he wanted to stop. He wanted to make sure his children would not eat hamburgers, drink Coca Cola, and wear Levis 501’s.

In addition, he wants to make sure your children will pray to Mecca five times a day and obey Sharia Law.

Someone has to give in. One side must surrender. It is a battle of wills for the freedom of people everywhere.

So, Mack and William, Bush’s terroristic attacks on our personal freedoms got a giant boost today…from the 9th Circuit Court of Liberalism in San Francisco.

All three Democratic Judges upheld the NSA Wiretaps that were at the heart of the Terrorist Surveillance Program.

Clear your cookies, fast! Rove’s watching…

Protect us? By letting 20 million illegals in? By ratcheting up tension with Russia? By invading a country with an inadequate plan? By ignoring 40 specific warnings of an al Qaeda attack before 9/11 then going on vacation for a month?

President George W. Bush (elected in 2000, and re-elected in 2004) has the entire country to worry about, William. He can’t be there to protect you as well as you want to be protected, cradle-to-grave and all that.

Sorry, you’ll just have to make do for yourself, maybe with a bit of help from your friends…

Oh well, that settles it then. If Osama is against it, we must be for it! And if Osama is FOR it, we must be against it!

This kindergarten-level world view is dangerous and ignores basic facts. Hey, I remember the good ol’ days when Osama was our big ally against the Russians in Afghanistan. Good times, good times.

We created Osama. He turned on us. In your black and white world, what does that make us?

RIGHT!! BUSH - THE GREAT
PROTECTOR

hahahahaha

Well, William, be fair: Bush is protecting us from flight delays this holiday season. Fighting those big battles, don’tcha know.

We created Osama. He turned on us. In your black and white world, what does that make us?

Human. Fallible. Trusting. Wishful.

You may forget who our Allies were in WWII. We needed Stalin to beat Hitler.

We made difficult choices. We have always made difficult choices. We will continue to make difficult choices as long as we are free.

Life isn’t all rainbows and bunnies. We have something the whole world wants.

Freedom. And that means that people will have to die to defend it. I don’t like it any better than you do. The difference is, I accept and understand it.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit

http://reasonoverreligion.blogspot.com/

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm

President George W. Bush (elected in 2000, and re-elected in 2004) has the entire country to worry about, William. He can’t be there to protect you as well as you want to be protected, cradle-to-grave and all that.

Ah, how does spending more in Iraq in ONE WEEK than on the US Border Patrol in ONE YEAR make us safer? Please explain that to all of us Serr8d, and all you Bushasskisser authoritarians.

That second link should have been this:

http://reasonoverreligion.blogspot.com/2007/11/war-what-is-it-good-for.html

Fuck Bush!

Kill one, you’re a murderer. Kill many, you’re a conquerer. Kill ‘em all , you’re a god.

Fuck those evil, greedy, skull and bones, murderous warmongers. You don’t like it? I don’t care. Fuck the president. If you are offended, you deserve to be. In the mean time, sign up or shut up.

And another thing: you’re not a revolutionary, hon. Your side has been in power for the past 15 years. Until Jan. 06, you had the Congress, the White House and the Judiciary.

That doesn’t make you a revolutionary. That makes you status quo.

Freedom. And that means that people will have to die to defend it. I don’t like it any better than you do. The difference is, I accept and understand it.

Except … the war we’re fightin in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. No Iraqi has tried to take my freedom. Although, somehow our oil did end up under their sand.

Hey, I remember the good ol’ days when Osama was our big ally against the Russians in Afghanistan.

Talk about a kindergarten view of world politics.

As for our oil addiction, I’m all for pursuing alternative energy, and that is happening. (Alternative fuel cars, hybrids, electrics are catching on) It’s a major change. Trying to force it too fast could damage an already fragile economy, but this attitude of I don’t support OPEC, I ride the bus. doesn’t help. We are all in this together.

I think several good things could come out of the Iraq war.

1) We demonstrate that we will come over there. Libya got on board pretty quickly, didn’t they?

2) When we leave Iraq, it demonstrates that we do not want to take over the country. We are not imperialists. (It would be helpful if the left stopped giving CNN those sound bites, by the way)

3) If we can leave some form of a democracy in the Middle East, other than Israel. And even better, if that government views the US as an ally.

Ex,
It’d also be nice if we hung around long enough to protect the people that have helped us this time. Hanging the Kurds out to dry after Gulf War I cost us a lot of credibility in the entire region.

We demonstrate that we will come over there. Libya got on board pretty quickly, didn’t they?

The utter gutlessness of Bill Clinton has a lot to do with why bin Laden thought we were soft enough to attack.

First the World Trade Center, the Cole, and Mogadishu, is it so difficult to see the opportunity?

It is so difficult to understand how anyone can think Hillary Clinton can protect this nation. Why go down this path again?

Gee, who was president on 9/11/2001?

Who was president the first 5 times Al-Qaeda attacked American targets?

To be fair, the first Al-Qaeda attack against Americans went down during the final month of Bush Senior’s term.

Plenty of blame to go around.