These are the same people who so strongly advocate and believe in abstinence only sex education and we all see how that’s turning out.

A closed mind is a terrible thing.

Being a Geologist and a Christian, this topic has always frustrated me. I really won’t comment except to say this is one of those topics where no one listens and everyone resorts to their stock arguments that do little but disparage their opponent.

DB, I couldn’t agree with you more. It is a very frustrating topic, and I am afraid that no matter what Christians like you and me might say, others will turn a deaf ear.

But I will say this: Everything I see in science just proves to me more and more that my God is real. Science is not “science fiction”, nor does science exist outside the realm of God. He created it, and there’s all there is to it (for me at least).

As I’ve gotten older, I realise that taking the first two chapters of Genesis literally is far less important than taking John 3:16 literally.

THANK YOU ERIC

slartibartfast, all of the Bible is relevant, from beginning to the end.

I don’t think slartibartfast said it wasn’t relevant, just that it was less important to take them literally.

Josie, I agree.

However, I cannot get salvation from believing in a literal 7 day creation story.

One day, we’ll find out for sure. We aren’t as far apart on this as you think. I belive God created the world and everything in it. I don’t know how, because, just like Job, I wasn’t there. Remember all those questions God asked Job? They could be asked of all of us. We weren’t there.

I also wasn’t there when Moses was nspired to write Genesis, so I don’t know what he saw in his head before he wrote it.

I have a translation of a translation.

It is not a sin to humble oneself before God, and honestly say “I don’t know”.

I do not disbelieve Genesis. Science, to me, is a tool, I do not consider it the highest authority.

One day, God will make it all clear. When I get to heaven, there will be many things I will have been wrong about in this life.

I have no illusions that being “right” will be my savior. I only have one Savior.

Well said….ditto

Slarti,

Well put. And that’s all I have to say about that.

Science is not a religion, it does not require faith in the unknown. It requires studying the unknown to try to make it knowable.

The bible is a melange of various oral traditions (OT) and “eyewitness accounts” (something like 60 to 100 years after the fact, apparently) transcribed into various dialects of hebrew, aramaic, latin and greek over a period of centuries. Believe what you want to believe. I believe there is an order in the universe and a force that does the ordering. Beyond that, I rely on science.

Any time someone tells me that they believe in the Biblical story of Creation, I want to ask them: which one? The Bible contains three.

Any time someone tells me that they believe the 10 Commandments should be posted in the Courthouse, I want to ask them: which one? There are at least four versions of those–and don’t forget Jesus, who said there really were only two Commandments.

All of this strikes me as very silly and not entirely unpredictable. This is what happens when dogma replaces true faith, which I think is what Jesus spent a good chunk of his ministry arguing against.

I wrote this post and stepped out for a long lunch to see my inbox filled with comments. I’m really very happy to see that they’re all really great comments. I was a bit shy about making this post.

to see my inbox filled with comments. I’m really very happy to see that they’re all really great comments Can we trade inboxes?

I’m really very happy to see that they’re all really great comments. I was a bit shy about making this post.

Don’t be shy about being bold and confrontational! That’s when the really interesting things happen.

It’s a shame that we can quote the verse,but the meaning is completely lost on the vast majority.
It is ALL about the spirit of the Bible,not the words!

SB,

I couldn’t agree with you more! That’s when we see a flurry of good debate going on!

Lesley, your post was well-written and invoked thought. Props to you!

CB, I agree…People memorize the words, but don’t take time to reflect on what they really mean. ‘Tis a shame.

Thanks Eric!

I definitely think that there is a lot of value in the Bible and want my children (when I have them) to grow up in a church, but this has made me realize that I need to keep close tabs on what they’re learning and to fully understand the dogma of the church I choose. That might sound like a big “duh” to a lot of you, but it’s only been within the last 15 years of my 35 on this planet that I’ve learned that there are so many differences in Protestant Christian beliefs (and even within denominations). Religion just wasn’t something I thought long and hard about until about the last five or six years.

I am a personal friend of Bill Jack, the guy referenced in that video.

As far as the insinuation that Jack (isn’t that a great name?) was avoiding the subject of “radiometric dating” or keeping the little homeschoolers from hearing about it . . . the credibility of it is widely disbelieved or questioned among evolution skeptics.

And, for the record, the fact that I don’t swallow every conclusion of every “scientist” doesn’t mean that I don’t believe science. Scientists VERY often have a dog in the fight, so to speak, and it is almost laughable when someone asserts otherwise.

saraclark,
Not that it is at all relevant to the discussion about origins of man, but how is abstinence ed working out? How about amoral sex ed?

Ned Williams:

So some science is good, as long as it doesn’t bump up against your inflexible belief system? That’s very generous of you.

This would include what; things like wonder drugs, nu-Q-lar weppins and garage door openers but not stem cell research?

I need to keep close tabs on what they’re learning and to fully understand the dogma of the church I choose

For me I’ve found it’s better to discount the dogma altogether. Then you can feel comfortable in and glean truth from any church you happen to find yourself in. Per my own experience and observations, dogma tends to provide more of a distraction from rather than a connection to the divine.

On the other hand, I’ve known several people in my life who absolutely connected through dogma, so your mileage may vary.

Dolphin:

It’s a dogma eat dogma world.

Ned Williams:

I love this statement, by you:

“As far as the insinuation that Jack (isn’t that a great name?) was avoiding the subject of “radiometric dating” or keeping the little homeschoolers from hearing about it . . . the credibility of it is widely disbelieved or questioned among evolution skeptics.”

That is a perfect capsule description of your style of “debate”. If you disagree with a premise you simply refuse to address it. That must be so gratifying to you.

How so, democommie?

There is an insinuation by the producer and by Lesley (by choosing that excerpt). What was the insinuation/assertion?

My response was to attest that Christian homeschoolers, in my relatively broad experience, widely discount the credibility of radiometric dating.

If you disagree with a premise you simply refuse to address it.

That’s not exactly what was done there though it’s still a neat trick. That statement instead reads like “I think Xis wrong because other people who think X is wrong think it’s wrong.”

It’s some great circular logic.

How is it circular, dolphin? Though I’m not sure I even understand your point.

What was the insinuation/assertion?

In order for the insinuation to be true, there needs to be a motive for the tour guides to be avoiding the exhibit. I’m challenging to assertion that there is any evidence (a) that he was avoiding it, or (b) that he felt the need to avoid it.

Slarti’s first comment is exactly right. If somebody has views and ideas that you consider “backward”, just try to tolerate them. If you had come up in their environment, perhaps you would think the same way.

The most important thing is that individuals have some type of understanding of a God that loves them. If the Bible God doesn’t work for you, get another one. We all understand God in different ways. Whatever works and grants peace.

As for us Bible believers, it is best not to argue. Just love them instead.

I agree with Slarti’s first comment, too, but have to challenge the assertion that what we believe isn’t relevant as long as we believe it or as long as it seems to “work” or seems to “grant peace.” Certainly Glen Dean, assuming Glen Dean is your real name, isn’t saying there is no truth.

Ned Williams:

This comment:

“There is an insinuation by the producer and by Lesley (by choosing that excerpt). What was the insinuation/assertion?

My response was to attest that Christian homeschoolers, in my relatively broad experience, widely discount the credibility of radiometric dating.”

is your defense of this comment:

“I am a personal friend of Bill Jack, the guy referenced in that video.

As far as the insinuation that Jack (isn’t that a great name?) was avoiding the subject of “radiometric dating” or keeping the little homeschoolers from hearing about it . . . the credibility of it is widely disbelieved or questioned among evolution skeptics.”

Who would those “evolution skeptics” be, Ned Williams. Are they scientists? Apparently not, as you say they are homeschoolers. I don’t think homeschoolers are stupid, Ned Williams. I think that your inference that their skepticism somehow invalidates science is ludicrous.