B-b-b-b-but! Rev. Wright! Bittergate!

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Ginger, never in a million years would I have guessed that you voted for BUSH last time. Why oh why?

I got burned voting for “the movement” instead of “the person” one time. Had to learn the hard way that the person had no allegience to the movement.

Get it in writing.

The Washington Post wrote a pretty scathing article about the myth of the “grassroot” movement behind Obama.

Please don’t kid yourself that Obama is any less beholden to corporate donations than any other candidate.

ALL of them take large generous gifts from various big-wig corporate leaders. There is nothing more ridiculous than listening to Michael Moore -a millionaire himself who is known for screwing over his own employees- lecture us about how Obama’s “change” will be any different than any other politician before him.

Give me a break.

I too wish that America would go back to the more unifying moments we had after 9/11, but the reality is that our country wasn’t exactly all kisses and hugs back then either. The 2000 election was as even split as you could possibly get, and things really haven’t changed since then.

I don’t buy the “hope for change” message. He’s a politician. So are the rest of them. They say what they think we want to hear, and then do whatever they want when elected. I am so sick of the idea that ANY politician is some sort of messiah that will lead us out of the desert or something. And to hear this from Michael Moore, the king of hypocrites, makes it even more disgusting.

Vote for O’Bama and you’ll be part of a movement…a bowel movement.

Why did you vote for Bush Security? Integrity? Well if it was security it makes sense to me that your vote would go to McCain. Integrity Well this is easy Vote for Someone that will stand up and lie to millions …Lions, Tigers and Snipers oh my ….. or someone that refuses to say the pledge to are flag how about Rev “I hate Whites” wright or maybe the weather underground INTEGRITY ???? there you go McCain again the vote is easy

Sparky:

I think you’re shorting out.

News2me:

You are, of course, a McCain supporter, it shows.

Yup. Obama is a politician. I think it’s safe to say that there is no such thing as a non-politician running for political office, anywhere in this country. Unless someone is elected by affirmation, without announcing or conducting a campaign, they have to be a politician. Obama wouldn’t be my first pick if I had a choice in the matter, but compared to Hillary Clinton and John “Wetstart” McCain, he gets my vote.

What is it with people hatin’ on Michael Moore? It can’t be because he’s deceitful or a money grubber or overweight (that would be Rush Limbaugh’s entire curriculum vitae). It must be because he makes smart, funny movies, unlike, say, Ben Stein’s “Expelled”. Yeah, that’s it, he’s successful at what he sets out to do, tweak the noses of the GOP and their corporate masters.

demo …typical response from a Dem all fluff refusing to answer any questions ot give any solutions just a bunch of BLA BLA BLA everything I said in my response was true and you have no answer for it so you choose to say I shorting out well the Truth hurts …..

Sparky:

“Why did you vote for Bush Security? Integrity? Well if it was security it makes sense to me that your vote would go to McCain. Integrity Well this is easy Vote for Someone that will stand up and lie to millions …Lions, Tigers and Snipers oh my ….. or someone that refuses to say the pledge to are flag how about Rev “I hate Whites” wright or maybe the weather underground INTEGRITY ???? there you go McCain again the vote is easy”

Obviously, you moron, you voted for George Bush whose integrity is nonexistent. This nation is despite the nearly trillion dollars already spent on his “Waronterra”, paranoid about its security.

John McCain is a career opportunist who is busily violating federal campaign laws that HE HELPED TO ENACT. Yeah, I got no answers for you, idiot.

Bush’s integrity nonexistent ??? Once again no proof spit it out and not the same old MSM bull crap give me facts …….

Paranoid about security ask the 3000 dead peoples relatives from the 9-11 if the paranoia is real or is the pain of having your fathers mothers sons and daughters being killed paranoid. You probably have a free Tibet bumper sticker on your car also and how are we going to do that with bumper stickers or Guns. Maybe red China will read your bumper stickers All you” peacers” want to preach about war the only way peace is ever archived is by defeating evil Hitler or Tojo ring a bell. The war on terror is a world war that we are fighting right now Bush knows and knowing his poll numbers would suffer did what was right anyway showing his integrity by doing the right thing protecting innocent people who the jihady’s blow up ,mutilate , decapitate, stone their women,keep their girls out of schools ect…….

Give me one fact that McCain as violated campaign laws not just a blanket statement……….I’m waiting ……chirp chip

Spanky:

You’re so deep into the koolaid that it’s hopeless. Folks like you that cling to a stubborn, misplaced belief in the honesty, decency and goodness of George W. Bush and his administration’s ongoing criminal enterprise.

You really need to be over at LGF, Free Republic or one of those “balanced” rightwing blogs where your idiocy will get you an “attaboy, Sparky”.

Speaking of the war in Iraq, you are over 42, right?

Spanky, no one needs to prove to me that shit stinks, and no one needs to prove to me that Bush and Cheney are lying bastards. Some things are just so obvious!

ask the 3000 dead peoples relatives from the 9-11 if the paranoia is real or is the pain of having your fathers mothers sons and daughters being killed paranoid

You know, the relatives, friends, and neighbors of the people killed on September 11 are aware of security issues at a gut level, as you say. And yet they voted massively against George Bush, and show signs of voting massively against John McCain in the coming election. Because the question really isn’t whether security is important (all agree that it is) but who is going to do the best job of securing it while respecting our liberties.

Attaboy, Spanky.

nm,
Not that it is dispositive on the issue, but that’s an interesting assertion about relatives, friends, et al of 9/11 victims. Can you direct me to a story or report on it?

dc,
The chickenhawk fallacy again? Not that you are interested in it, but that does not facilitate constructive conversation at MCB.

My beef with Moore is partly how disingenuous/hypocritical he is, but mainly how anti-American he is in my opinion. I don’t believe that Socialism is an American value. I resent reckless assertions of Fascism. His hyper-partisanship and moral relativism are offensive as well. His shtick is stick it to the GOP . . . whatever it takes.

Ned Williams:

“The chickenhawk fallacy again? Not that you are interested in it, but that does not facilitate constructive conversation at MCB.”

It’s not a “fallacy”, Ned. It’s a legitimate question to ask you chickenhawks. You pointed out, when I asked you a similar question a few months back, that you are 43. Let’s do the math, the invasion of Iraq was in march of 2003, so you were, what 38, then? You could have gone, Ned Williams. But you chose not to go, and instead to wave your Bushco pom-poms; aren’t they getting a little tattered by now.

When I start worrying about what you consider will facilitate constructive conversation here, or anywhere else, I’ll get myself committed for observation, you twit.

Your beef with Michael Moore is that he’s smarter than people like Medved, Reynolds, Limbaugh, Savage and the rest of the reichwing talkingheads–and he’s on the other side. His hyper-partisanship and moral relativism? Wow, Ned Williams, I guess people like Rushbo, Mike Savage, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingram hold the moral high ground all right.

typical response from a Dem all fluff refusing to answer any questions ot give any solutions just a bunch of BLA BLA BLA everything I said in my response was true and you have no answer for it so you choose to say I shorting out well the Truth hurts …..

I think DC’s response was more towards your total lack of grammar and inability to correctly use punctuation or speak in complete sentences.

Now I’m the king of typos, so I’m not gonna throw stones from a glass house, but your comments in this thread have been verging on incomprehensible (crossing well over that line in places). What you said may or may not be true, but we’ll never know if you can’t make it any clearer than that.

Ned, I can direct you to the voting records of Hoboken, NJ, and all the other towns up and down the west side of the Hudson, which lost incredibly disproportionate numbers of relatives, friends, and neighbors on that day. In Hoboken, for instance, a municipality of 38,000 people, we lost 52 citizens that day.

Well Well the same ole same ole All these responses and not one fact not one. What the last few emails show are the same Liberal tactics no facts just a bunch of crap DOLPHIN is using the clasic libral spin if you can’t prove the facts wrong just go to attacking the messenger. Yes my writing skills are not what they should be. I got thru High School Because the teachers Liked me (another story about poor public schools) but my parents did not have the money to send me to higher ed. So I did the best I could I became A firefighter and rose to the rank of Capt/Paramedic. So I never cliamed to be a english major…. but if that is all you have in this argument… is my english skills… You sir haved been trumped …..
Commie…
Why should Ned have to enlist in the Military when there are more than enough Volunteers.. Ned may work in a field that supports the troops.. I do know this the troops fighting against the jihady’s around the world for your safety.. would like to have support and not a bunch of surrender monkeys running up the white flag why they are still in the field. COMMIE I WILL SAY IT AGAIN GIVE ME SOME FACTS. You will notice here that all the name calling ,lack of facts all come from the same side… my my you all are bitter

but if that is all you have in this argument

That’s sort of my point. There’s no argument being had here (at least not one you’re contributing to). Any argument involves an exchange of ideas. You’re just piece-mealing words together into incomprehensible nonsense.

Here’s a fact for you: you have not presented any facts or arguments to be disputed. You have instead presented a botched collection of (mostly) words arranged in a manner in which the reading is only rarely coherent at all.

If you are a firefighter and a paramedic, then you have better reading and writing skills than you are presenting here. More than half my family on my dad’s side work in EMS. I’ve seen the training texts. One doesn’t have to have a degree in English to present an argument on a blog, but if one is incapable of writing at at least a first grade level or so, it would be wise to avoid mediums in which the written word is the dominant form of communication.

Anyways, it’s been real and it’s been fun, but it hasn’t been real fun. I’ve wasted enough time on you already, just trying to give you some helpful advice. If you can put together a decipherable argument, I’ll be happy to have to have a discussion. Until then, well, I guess from your perspective I’ll just have to be “trumped.”

Spanky:

Dolphin is too kind. I understand what you’re saying. I think you’re an idiot. So when were you in Iraq?

Not in Iraq did my turn the USAF working on A10A warthogs 1979-1983.. my facts again Hillary is a liar and Obama’s hates America. They both would be weak on security pulling out of Iraq before the jobs done both have stated they would. That is were this converstation started now its a comment on my English skills or lack there of. You boys need to know something I have held dying babies at car wrecks scenes,I have seen burnt and charred bodies at house fires, I have saved people lives and property,I have gave comfort to people who have lost thier love ones. You think I care that my English skills are not up to your standards.I know whats important in this campaign truth and Love for your country the Dem. have neither… To finish the words Idiot, moron,twit..you called me all of these , Just what level of advanced literature did you find these words. In closing you will always find the name calling and character assassination from the liberal side. because they have no real facts to use.

Spanky:

“my facts again Hillary is a liar and Obama’s hates America.”

You call Hillary a liar, now, that, is a fact–what the hell, she’s a pol. Of course your hero, Georgie Boy, is a pathalogical liar. Day in and day out the current administration has withheld information or leaked it, as it suited their political agenda. George W. Bush has no honor, no integrity and if he’s a christian, I’m a republican.

You say it’s a fact that Obama is an “America Hater”. Wrong, Spanky, that is an opinion to which you are certainly entitled. Do you buy into that flag pin in the lapel bullshit that is put out by the talking heads? Do you serioiusly think that is what makes a man a patriot? Good grief!

Thanks for your service in the AF. But if you’re for the war, re-enlist, go to Iraq, kill some islamofascists. You’ve got prior service in a critical AFSC (or whatever they’re calling those these days) and the head of the Joint Cheifs just said that he didn’t think the AF was doing as much as they could. So, unless you’re over 46 they will welcome you back with open arms.

Your career as an EMT, holding dead babies, whatever, does not qualify you to preach to me about whether or not I love my country. You say:

“I know whats important in this campaign truth and Love for your country the Dem. have neither…”

but of course, this is, in your opinion, not an insult–just another fact?

You and Ned Williams will get along just fine. You both like to make statements of opinion that you characterize as fact. You both get upset when called on that tactic. You both hate to be insulted but have no problem doing so when you disagree with others. It’s a match made in heaven.

Attaboy, Spanky.

Valid arguments for why ginger should consider McCain. And thanks for visiting … you too democommie–we appreciate the page hits!!

Ned Williams:

I know how full your schedule is, so I just went and got this”

Ned Williams:

Well, we’ll just have to start all over again:

I know how full your schedule is, so I just went and got this:

Main Entry: ar·gu·ment
Pronunciation: \ˈär-gyə-mənt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin argumentum, from arguere
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : an outward sign : indication
2 a: a reason given in proof or rebuttal b: discourse intended to persuade
3 a: the act or process of arguing : argumentation b: a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion c: quarrel, disagreement
4: an abstract or summary especially of a literary work

“Valid arguments for why ginger should consider McCain.”

Not so much. Spanky says:

“my facts again Hillary is a liar and Obama’s hates America. They both would be weak on security pulling out of Iraq before the jobs done both have stated they would.”

Saying that Hillary Clinton is a liar IS a fact. I concede that; all politicians are liars–it’s a vital job skill for them.

Saying that Barack “Obama’s hates America” is an OPINION. Saying:

“They both would be weak on security pulling out of Iraq before the jobs done both have stated they would.” is simply not true. Neither candidate has said that they would leave Iraq before the job is done–please feel free to furnish a quotation from either of them that states such a thing.

Are you really a lawyer, Ned Williams, oh, my bad, Withdrawn your honor.

So, Ned Williams, now you appreciate the page hits? Just a few weeks back you were saying that no one here wanted me to comment. I assume you were using the royal perogative “We” in both instances.

Like I said, you and Spanky will be great buds.

“They both would be weak on security pulling out of Iraq before the jobs done both have stated they would.” is simply not true. Neither candidate has said that they would leave Iraq before the job is done–please feel free to furnish a quotation from either of them that states such a thing.

Well, you have to realize that folx like Sparky don’t know what a “done job” looks like in Iraq. Daddy GOP has told them several different scenarios for what it looked like, and kept moving the goalposts as each scenario failed to materialize, and ponies and rainbows didn’t fly out of everyone’s asses. So, Sparky and his ilk are waiting for the next rosy picture that McSame will try to paint for them as November approaches. And they’ll believe that bullshit, too, just like they have, all along.
.

I’m definitely too busy to go researching facts to support arguments YOU’re making. But I need to clarify my two points: Spanky’s arguments initially (the one y’all attacked) were that Ginger should support McCain if her reasons for supporting Bush were related to vigorous nat’l defense (I know, I know–Hill and BO love America and will be strong on defense etc, but . . .)

Re. Page hits, I meant your numerous visits; I didn’t mean to imply that others were visiting to read your comments.

Moving target is right–first it was a war for oil, then a grudge war, then a Halliburton strategic venture, then a distraction from failure to nab Osama, then . . . But seriously, there were a variety of reasons for regime change in Iraq–some folks have a stake in characterizing the whole enterprise as being nefarious. And some people loathe (wink, wink) the military and can hardly fathom an instance in which use of force is legitimate.

Moving target is right–first it was a war for oil, then a grudge war, then a Halliburton strategic venture, then a distraction from failure to nab Osama, then . . . But seriously

Well, you’re talking about justifications for war (and you managed to get those wrong, too — at least by what the administration told us). I was talking about “what does success in Iraq look like?”

Recall the many benchmarks that have been conveniently forgotten and brushed aside, as yet another cheerleader says “six more months… the next six months are critical.” IOW, “We don’t know what success looks like, or even how likely that is to happen within McSame’s 10,000 year pledge, but by golly, we gotta keep doin’ it until… well, forever, basically.”
.

Ned Williams:

“I’m definitely too busy to go researching facts to support arguments YOU’re making. But I need to clarify my two points: Spanky’s arguments initially (the one y’all attacked) were that Ginger should support McCain if her reasons for supporting Bush were related to vigorous nat’l defense (I know, I know–Hill and BO love America and will be strong on defense etc, but . . .)”

That is not an argument. That is a premise. The argument is not presented. Gee Whiz Bush is enjoying a 69% disapproval rating, why do you suppose that might be? Could it have anything to do with making a complete balls up of everything he’s touched in the last 7+ years? NO,no, of course not, it’s because of people like me who say mean things about him and the idiots who still support him.

“But seriously, there were a variety of reasons for regime change in Iraq–some folks have a stake in characterizing the whole enterprise as being nefarious. And some people loathe (wink, wink) the military and can hardly fathom an instance in which use of force is legitimate.

Golly whillikers, Ned Williams. I hope you don’t think I loathe the military. I’m a veteran, after all. I loathe Bush and his fellow chickenhawks for what they have done to our military. I particularly loathe people who still cheerlead for the war without having a personal stake in it (wink, wink).

JP,
D’oh! I forgot . . . those were all the different assertions of Democrats.

Dc,
As always . . . thanks for visiting!

Ned Williams:

I see that, once again, you have been reduced to saying nothing because your blather has proven to be exactly that. I would think that you’re stupid, except I’ve been told (by no less an authority than you) that you are quite intelligent. So, it must be that you have no genuine argument or that you are just intellectually dishonest.

As usual, you don’t want to answer questions that stray from your talking points. So, I’ll just be blunt.

Ned Williams; were you referring to me when you said:

“And some people loathe (wink, wink) the military and can hardly fathom an instance in which use of force is legitimate.”

because if you were, chickenhawk, bite me.

D’oh! I forgot . . . those were all the different assertions of Democrats.

… all of which seem more likely, since the reasons stated (and re-stated, ad infinitum) by the administration were obvious, proveable bullshit.

Still, you continue to sidestep the question: What does success in Iraq look like? How will we know when it’s time to leave?

Note that wishing for ponies flying out of everyone’s asses = we’re never leaving.
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Spanky, Ned,
Are you really dumb enough to think Bush has waged an effective war on terror for the trillion spent?

A recent gov’t report states clearly the Bush administration’s war on terror is anabject failure

Title of new report from the Government Accountability Office:

The United States Lacks a Comprehensive Plan to Destroy the Terrorist Threat and Close the Safe Haven in Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas

The report flatly states that an al Qaeda attack is now likely because the Bush Administration has not met US security goals to destroy the terrorist threat and close the al Qaeda’s safe haven. Further, the report states that the Bush Administration has no plans to eliminate this known terrorist threat.

Further, in a report published by the National Defense University in Washington, retired colonel and former senior adviser to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Joseph Collins has described the Iraq as a “major debacle” whose outcome is “in doubt.”
Read excerpts (USA Today) from the Colonel’s report that calls the Bush Administration’s decision to invade: “a classic case of failure to adopt and adapt prudent courses of action that balance ends, ways, and means” resulting in a “damaged” and “fallen” status as a moral leader in the world, “a severely strained military,” and “a negative impact on all other efforts in the war on terror.”

Question:
Are you too stupid to face these facts or do you have a mental problem? Or is it because you are an authoritarian and can’t help yourself? Which is it?

No, William, I don’t beat my wife.

William:

You know you just can’t win an argument with Ned Williams, because as soon as he runs out of talking points, he walks away. An effective strategy, not.

You also can know that he will walk away from an “argument” when you resort to ad hominem attacks and insults. An effective strategy, not (whatever that means).

Ned,could it be a combination of the two? Cause you do tend to disappear from the discussion when things are not going well for you.No offense, just an observation!

jp,
Well, they weren’t obvious “proveable” bulls**t to all the Dems and foreign intel organizations.

But it is a fair question whether “success” is possible over there. But I think a majority of Americans would say that we have yet to achieve success, so, the question is should we press on in an effort to achieve success or not? I personally believe it isn’t likely that we’ll ever be able to establish a republic in Iraq, but I also think that we probably need to accomplish some other objectives before retreating. I also think that there is some value in fighting this global war with Islamists in the Middle East rather than on the defensive.

re. the effectiveness of Bush’s strategy in this war, it is a legitimate question. But there are some things that you guys tend to ignore, perhaps by virtue of being in the opposition party: A war of this nature will have costs. War of any nature will require controversial decisions. Whether a Democrat or a Republican is better suited for assessing those costs and making those controversial decisions will be a major issue in this election.

dc,
Thanks again!

cb,
That’s an intriguing question, but no, I don’t think it is a combination.

Due to the nature of my activities over the past three weeks–with rather limited access to the internet, and due to my New Year’s resolution not to entertain fallacious arguments, I have–at least of late, been unable to readily respond or either conflicted about whether it was worth it to respond.

Ned you are correct we are tying down and killing the jihadys in Iraq and all over the globe. I have not answered any of these latest Emails I don’t insult people like they have choose to do in every response to me and you. The emails speak for them selves and anyone who reads them can see (liberal or conservative) can see the difference in you and the others. you have choose to be a gentleman and argue like a adult you did not have to fall to name calling To get your point across .

No Spanky, we don’t resort to name calling, just gov’t reports, data, facts… silly things like that you see fit to ignore.

William no name calling??? you wrote

Are you too stupid to face these facts or do you have a mental problem?

Well we have proven you don’t have your own facts straight. I am neither stupid or have mental problem just stating the way I feel with out resorting to the same old liberal tactics Of name calling and attacking the messenger personally. Thier are some thruths in your facts but you did not tell the whole story Low death rate of are troops thier were more military deaths in Clintons two terms than in Bush’s so the military had to do something rightsounds like good plann ing to me. How about the schools, hospitals, infastucture being built for the people of these regions. we have killed 100,000’s of jidhay’s around the world. ABout the moral leader of the world who would that be….. I would like to know your answer …..I don’t remember Bush claiming to be

Poor Ned Williams, Poor Spanky:

They can’t understand why people don’t recognize their brilliance.

Spanky:

Where on earth do you get the information to back up these statements?

“Low death rate of are troops thier were more military deaths in Clintons two terms than in Bush’s so the military had to do something rightsounds like good plann ing to me.”

Citation of facts, please.

“100,000’s of jidhays around the world”

citation of facts, please.

those two statements are utter nonsense as far as I’m aware. Please furnish the links to the facts to back up your statements.

Ned Williams:

You’ve grown quite fond of the “ad hominem” defense. I think it just boils down to the fact that you can dish it out but you can’t take it.

How can I conclude that people are not stupid if they parrot bullsit and made up propaganda like you just did:

thier were more military deaths in Clintons two terms than in Bush’s

How dare you compare military stress, injuries and death during the CLinton years with Bush - particularly since there have been an estimated 320,000 US military with brain injuries due to the Iraq war and by contrast, in the Kosovo War that Clinton let with NATO, there was not one single US combat death. You really need to get you mind involved in a reality check, dude.

Of course you wouldn’t have any interest in finding out how the Bush Administration contracted retired military personel who had a direct involvement with war contractors (profiteers) to sell the war to the American public.

“Internal Pentagon documents repeatedly refer to the military analysts as ‘message force multipliers’ or ’surrogates’ who could be counted on to deliver administration ‘themes and messages’ to millions of Americans.

Here’s the short version.

This whole thread proves what I’ve said for years. People like Spanky simply suffer from a lcak of knowledge, however, with Ned, it goes deeper in to the realm of denialism and authoritarianism… a psychological condition.

William, I’ll admit that when you pulled out the 320,000 figure, I fact-checked you. I thought you had added an extra zero — 32k was horrible, but damn, 320k would be 1 in every 3 service personnel stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan since the beginning of the war. Way too high, I thought.

The new RAND Corporation study says you’re absolutely right.

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/articleid/9859

Sorry I doubted you. Oh, and it looks like 18.5 per cent of returning vets report that they are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. About 60k have sought treatment and the other 60k haven’t yet because the VA (which is totally overwhelmed) seems to be actively discouraging them to come in unless they have suicidal or homocidal ideation.

Blow them up, screw them up, cut them loose.

Fact check me Bridget? I would expect nothing less from a fellow professor!
Thanks and happy finals week.